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#109785 - 05/19/03 01:51 AM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
kman Offline
Member

Registered: 05/15/03
Posts: 368
Loc: minnesota
To adress the original question. In order to legally use force in self defense the assailant must have the intent,the means and the oppurtunity to do you PHYSICAL harm. Then your response must me timely and proportional. You can only use enough force to cause him to cease his hostile actions. Break his leg in response to a punch in the face and you might face an assault charge as well as civil liability. If you keep fighting after he has ceased hostilities then you've become the criminal agressor. If you end up in court due to this the requirement is that the court apply whats known as "the reasonable man doctrine" what would a reasonable person have done in your place. And remember,,they'll have the luxury of all the time inthe world in a safe environment to second guess you. The best strategy is avoidance.

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#109786 - 06/21/03 06:56 AM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
It all boils down on how you answer the question. How did your assailant's leg get broken? Under most penal laws you are only allowed to use necessary force to prevent or terminate specific conduct. The force must be reasonable. Breaking the leg of the person that you are arresting may fall under deadly physical use of force. If you said that you put him in a leg lock and his leg snapped...you are in trouble, that is not reasonable force in most cases. But if he fell down in the course of being apprehended, it is a whole different issue.
I am not impressed with your academy instructors answer. I am still amazed with the 1950 style of self defence training that they still teach. Look into your penal law books for guidance. Remember it is very important that your report is writen well. Learn jujutsu from a good instructor. www.lonewolfjujutsu.com

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#109787 - 06/24/03 10:38 AM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Ed, I think the important point in the original statement was that the attackers leg was broken whilst the victim was in the process of defending himself.

In the Uk that would usually pass as reasonable force so long as it could be shown that the defender tried all reasonable means to avoid the fight and never went beyond self defence. A leg lock would almost certainly be seen as a reasonable option for a police officer effecting an arrest, as it implies at the very least that the attacker was the author of their own misfortune and continued to fight after being placed into some kind of restraint.

If the defender was a trained martial artist it might certainly complicate the issue for them, but the onus would still be on the prosecution to prove the amount of force used was unreasonable.

Budo

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#109788 - 06/25/03 12:19 AM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
The law is a little different in the states. Law suits are a dime a dozen. As a cop taking a report ,with out seeing the actual fight, will probably be filed as mutual combat. But if the other person was maimed, a broken leg is maimed under NY Penal Law, you may find yourself in trouble. Especialy if you do not look too messed up. Your right most P.O. will not file charges if you are truly defending yourself. But the best policy is to have witnesses to come to your defense. Ed

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#109789 - 06/25/03 06:00 AM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Absolutely right. A witness for the defence is priceless, especially an independant one. Throughout my training it was always emphasised that witness perception is everything. The acid test was always "how would (this technique) look to a little old lady who just came round the corner and didn't see the offender spit in your face or punch you fillings out". I think that is a good yard stick to keep in mind.

Budo

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#109790 - 06/26/03 04:54 PM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
judderman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 1400
Loc: UK
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cato:
Absolutely right. A witness for the defence is priceless, especially an independant one. Throughout my training it was always emphasised that witness perception is everything. The acid test was always "how would (this technique) look to a little old lady who just came round the corner and didn't see the offender spit in your face or punch you fillings out". I think that is a good yard stick to keep in mind.

Budo
[/QUOTE]

Excellent post Cato.

This with what you said on another thread about what we would use as self defence, others would regard as assualt, sum it up nicely.

Budo.

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#109791 - 06/27/03 02:35 PM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
mark Offline
sword of magnamity

Registered: 03/04/03
Posts: 1284
Loc: uk
Yep Cato, once again you are spot on.

Did you do the scenario where 2 guys face each other, the class close their eyes, and one faces the other with his fists clenches and held high…calls eyes open…..”who is the aggressor?” always the guy with the fists…
Then the same is done with the same man holding his hands in the same “guard” but hands open palms out…..very different storey.

It is about time our police and other security hand small , cameras and audio pick up , in their uniform, FFS it is easy technology…..i would rather have had that when I served in the police than a damn gun………


Mark

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#109792 - 08/30/03 12:56 AM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
Doughnut Offline
Member

Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 197
Loc: Mid-west, U.S.A
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kotetsu:
My knowledge of self-defense is that there has to be no other option than using force. And, at least for police, only an equal amount of force can be used(deadly force met with the same, etc.)

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#109793 - 08/30/03 01:15 AM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
Doughnut Offline
Member

Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 197
Loc: Mid-west, U.S.A
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Doughnut:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kotetsu:
My knowledge of self-defense is that there has to be no other option than using force. And, at least for police, only an equal amount of force can be used(deadly force met with the same, etc.)[/QUOTE]

As far as I know in every U.S Jurisdiction The use of force standerd for the authorities is one level above that of the suspect. The level is determined by the "use of force continuum" adapted by the agency or, set in law by the state.
The standerd in the correctional agency I work for is differaint in that it "the least amount of force neccicary"(to deal with the sittuation presumably) which can both be a much laxer standered I.E I had to shoot that guy because he was A Maximum offender about to escape, or a much harsher standered " did you realy have slam that 245lb 6' violently out of control offender to the ground? She is a woman after all."
For the civillian the standerd in my state is a resonable amount of force for the sittuation. Things such as fear for ones life are taken into account. However one has no protection if they are interceading on behafe of another, unless that person is in grave danger.
The further you get away from a "force continuam" the more sloppy, and haphazerdly the law becomes. In all of these instances be prepared for a Lawsuit... even if you kill the bugger.

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#109794 - 08/30/03 02:09 AM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
Doughnut Offline
Member

Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 197
Loc: Mid-west, U.S.A
...

[This message has been edited by Doughnut (edited 08-30-2003).]

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