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#109775 - 02/12/03 09:06 PM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
Jamoni Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
From a law enforcement perspective, does the concept of disparity of force hold any water? IE, This guy is eight times my size, or "I'm just a small woman, and he's a big man." Or, I'm in a wheelchair, so ANY form of attack should be considered deadly force, etc etc.?

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#109776 - 02/13/03 01:01 PM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Certainly in the UK we take account of "impact factors" which include such things as relative size, state of mind (drink/drugs), previous knowledge etc.

It is considered a legitimate tactic to get in first only if you can show a number of these factors had a bearing on the situation. Incidentally, knowlewdge that someone trains in martial arts is also considered justification for using increased force to retrain them.

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#109777 - 03/10/03 01:45 PM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
From reading these posts... and my own experiences, it seems to me budo training has done more to lower our "fitness for survial" in the modern society than to help us survive. It has gotten to a point when people ask me for advices about starting to train budo - which I love whole heartedly and want to share it with as many people as I can - I hesistate to recommand it.

Kind of depressing, don't you think?

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#109778 - 03/10/03 04:31 PM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
I don't know if budo training has made us any worse off, raccoon. The problem as I see it is that the law severely curtails your options and limits your right to use it, and probably rightly so.

If we look to budo as merely a way to learn to fight then yes, it's value for lawfull use in society is certainly questionable, but don't we get so much more from training than the ability to kick butt?

Budo

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#109779 - 03/10/03 06:57 PM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
Thank you Cato, I have forgotten there is more to budo training than just self-defense.

It's just that I have been in situations where I know I would have fought back if I weren't trained. Little things like pushing back, any untrained person can (and probably will) do that. But then I was assuming fighting back would be better than to just walk away.

-raccoon

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#109780 - 03/11/03 10:12 PM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
Jamoni Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
Raccoon, one of the paradoxes of MA is that, by learning about violence, we are actually more able and INCLINED to avoid it. When you know EXACTLY how bad it can get, don't you want to keep it from getting that bad?
Once you have accepted the inevitability of your own personal death, you tend to put it off as much as possible.

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#109781 - 03/12/03 01:56 AM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
Jamoni, I agree.

Violence is one of those taboos that we (as civilized beings) like to deny. We like to think it's not part of us, it's not part of our society, it will never happen to ME, but it's real, it's there, and it happens to everyone. And because it's so taboo, we don't face it. When it hits, we don't know how to deal with it.

By engaging yourself in training, little by little, you learn how to handle yourself under violence. It's no longer something you try to supress, or deny. You accept it as a fact of life, you deal with it.

And yes, I am forced to hit innocent looking beginners enough that I will avoid hurting anyone if I can help it at all. Despite what I said in the previous post in this thread - I am glad I didn't fight back.

I really like your choice of words - "learning about violence" - we don't learn to BE violent, we learn about violence. We face it, learn to deal with it etc.

If you look at it that way... it's not really a paradox, eh?

-raccoon

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#109782 - 03/12/03 07:40 PM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
Jamoni Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
Its a paradox if seen from outside of MA community. People think "You train in martial arts? thats violent. Therefore, you are violent." I look at it more as the art of conflict resolution, working from a worst case scenario (fighting) backwards. Only problem is, MA usually STOPS at the worst case, and never teaches you how to deal with grey areas. After years of training in MA, of being in the army, of being an EMT, and some other stuff, I found that I was perfectly able to deal with any emergency or horrible situation, but that I had no idea what to do WHEN THINGS WENT RIGHT. I had no skills for dealing with success! I actually found myself sabotagin my own life, because I was more comfortable when things went wrong, as I knew what to do! This applies to MA, because we often turn a small disagreement into a conflict, BECAUSE WE ARE MORE CAPABLE IN THAT ARENA.

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#109783 - 05/06/03 09:30 AM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
Kotetsu Offline
Member

Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 314
Loc: Hollis, NH, USA
My knowledge of self-defense is that there has to be no other option than using force. And, at least for police, only an equal amount of force can be used(deadly force met with the same, etc.) For example there was one case with a wife beater. He and his wife had gotten into an argument and he had hit she had pushed him. He got angry and tried to hit her again. She ran into a closet and locked the door. There was a gun in this closet which she grabbed hoping to scare him away. He hit the door a few times then stopped. After a second or two she oppened the door and saw him going into their bedroom. There was another gun in the bedroom. She shot through the bedroom door three times and hit him twice. He died and she pleaded self defense. She was deemed not guilty as she had sufficient reason to fear that deadly force was going to be used against her.

Sorry about the long story, but the moral of it is, if you fear a certain amount of force is going to be used against you, you can reply with an equal amount.

By the way I am in a practical law class, so I'm pretty sure that is what it is. We haven't gone over self-defense to much yet as we haven't gotten that far but it has come up once or twice.

Oh yeah, and this is in the US. I don't know about anywhere else.

[This message has been edited by Kotetsu (edited 05-06-2003).]

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#109784 - 05/10/03 09:28 AM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
Jamoni Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
Incidentally, what's wrong with people? I'll never understand why you wouldn't abandon an obviously unworkable relationship LONG before it came to gunplay!

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