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#109373 - 11/01/03 05:19 PM Kiai's
karate-do Offline
Member

Registered: 10/31/03
Posts: 428
Loc: Wales
Does anyone have a reasonable amount of knowledge on kiai's they would like to share,I'm learning Shotokan karate and in that my teacher just teaches us to make as loud a sound as possible to increase the power of eg a punch but from the info ive read on the internet there are specific sounds, syllables etc to pronounce for different effects is this true?

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#109374 - 11/02/03 05:49 AM Re: Kiai's
Bossman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 1785
Loc: Chatham Kent UK
Ki = animation
Ai = harmony

Kiai = harmonising all the different ways that you can animate your mind and body.... A few lifetime's study for anyone! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

The shout should be a spontaneous result of Kiai sometimes getting people to shout can produce a kind of Kiai....

I once asked my Sensei when do you Kiai in this Kata? He answered looking puzzled .... all of the time... [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

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#109375 - 11/07/03 09:16 PM Re: Kiai's
CanuckMA Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/06/03
Posts: 570
Loc: Toronto, ON, Canada
The sound will vary from person to person. the kiai is the focus of energy at a single space-time point. The sound comes from an explosive emptying of the lings. It comes from the diaphram upwards. At the time of impact, you tense the muscles controling the blow, and the stomach, as it the the center of power for the body. This tightening of the stomach will pusj the diaphragm upwards, emptying the lungs. Since the chest and throat muscles should be relaxed, you get a short, violent expelling of air, resulting in a sound.

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#109376 - 11/08/03 02:43 PM Re: Kiai's
karate-do Offline
Member

Registered: 10/31/03
Posts: 428
Loc: Wales
Is there any specific method of relaxing the throat Ive never even been told to relax the throat but know it must be necessary as youve just described as i get a saw throat after my kiai I did a little research and noticed that they use a type of excercise in aikido for it, can anyone allaborate?

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#109377 - 11/10/03 12:18 PM Re: Kiai's
CanuckMA Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/06/03
Posts: 570
Loc: Toronto, ON, Canada
[QUOTE]Originally posted by karate-do:
Is there any specific method of relaxing the throat Ive never even been told to relax the throat but know it must be necessary as youve just described as i get a saw throat after my kiai I did a little research and noticed that they use a type of excercise in aikido for it, can anyone allaborate?[/QUOTE]

It's not just the throat. It's being able to start from a totally relaxed stage and then tense only the muscles directly involved in the technique, leaving the others relaxed

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#109378 - 11/14/03 04:44 PM Re: Kiai's
karate-do Offline
Member

Registered: 10/31/03
Posts: 428
Loc: Wales
It's not just the throat. It's being able to start from a totally relaxed stage and then tense only the muscles directly involved in the technique, leaving the others relaxed

could you please elaborate on this canuckMA or anyone else like on methods of practicing relaxing the muscles involved in the technique?

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#109379 - 11/14/03 09:14 PM Re: Kiai's
CanuckMA Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/06/03
Posts: 570
Loc: Toronto, ON, Canada
It's not practise, it's a matter of being relaxed when you train.

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#109380 - 11/28/03 01:16 PM Re: Kiai's
karate-do Offline
Member

Registered: 10/31/03
Posts: 428
Loc: Wales
does anyone know about fa jing is it a method if kiai'ing and is it a part of chinese boxing?

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#109381 - 11/29/03 02:35 AM Re: Kiai's
Bossman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 1785
Loc: Chatham Kent UK
Most Chinese Martial Artists I know find this term highly amusing as it means "shaking sexual energy" and to them means something quite rude. Some Martial Artists use the term to mean shaking the body and sending energy into the opponent.

I think Erle Montague a controversial Taiji Instructor from Australia made the term popular. The Chinese word that I learned for that was "Fa Geng".

[This message has been edited by Bossman (edited 11-29-2003).]

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#109382 - 11/29/03 02:21 PM Re: Kiai's
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bossman:
Most Chinese Martial Artists I know find this term highly amusing as it means "shaking sexual energy" and to them means something quite rude.
The Chinese word that I learned for that was "Fa Geng".

[This message has been edited by Bossman (edited 11-29-2003).]
[/QUOTE]

In that case, would you please tell me how I could develop my fa jing.

It's got to be cheaper than Viagra.

JohnL

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#109383 - 11/30/03 02:39 AM Re: Kiai's
Bossman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 1785
Loc: Chatham Kent UK
LOL ..... if you've ever trained with Chinese "Masters"... believe me, Viagra is a LOT cheaper!

And with this type of mistranslation - you could end up with an election! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

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#109384 - 12/20/03 09:03 PM Re: Kiai's
KempoDoc Offline
Stranger

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 2
Loc: New Jersey
[QUOTE]Originally posted by karate-do:
Does anyone have a reasonable amount of knowledge on kiai's they would like to share,I'm learning Shotokan karate and in that my teacher just teaches us to make as loud a sound as possible to increase the power of eg a punch but from the info ive read on the internet there are specific sounds, syllables etc to pronounce for different effects is this true?[/QUOTE]

This is a similar question I asked when I studied GoJuRyu. For the past 12 years I have studied internal styles based in Kempo. I have come to believe that the Kiai or spirit yell actually interferes with proper breathing and therefore flow of internal energy (Ki) and thus power. Breathing is an art in itself and it is a lot easier to understand and master with an instructor willing to teach you, but some general rules: learn your techniques properly so that you can allow your body to relax. Any muscle tension impedes Ki flow. Breath in through your nose, and out through your mouth. In on a block and out on a strike. The exhale becomes the Kiai and can be hard (eg Sanchin), soft (eg Tensho), or silent, as practiced in internal arts. The important thing is not the yell, but allowing energy to flow unimpeded. Some people concentrate so much on the yell, that it takes energy away from the technique. You may want to read technigues in Aikido to further explore breathing on your own, and add this to your style.

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#109385 - 12/23/03 04:04 PM Re: Kiai's
Spiritknight Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/18/03
Posts: 12
Loc: Harrisburg,Pa,USA
want to know how i do this so called technique. simple yelling is not needed. relax the muscles raising you Ki energy to the point of the attact and focus on that target then using your energy strike that target using your energy. someday i will be able to explain this stuff at my own dojo. till then i plan on seeing you at a coming World Martial Arts tournament hopefully it will somewhere in the USA so i don't have to travel to some country like England. unless it is somewhere like Japan.

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#109386 - 06/15/04 09:36 AM Re: Kiai's
jgrowney Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 14
Loc: Rochester, NY
Here's something I found on another message board in response to a similar question. Hope this is helpful. Written by Shaun Ravens Sensei.

Well, actually, in an interview that I published in the old Dojo Magazine, Seagal Sensei said, "I don't breathe during the technique." That is somewhat different than merely holding the breath. In the beginning levels, one learns to breathe out when executing a technique. However, that is merely to begin to train the muscles associated with the correct breathing method.

When observing advanced practitioners, one of the things that you begin to notice is that you breathe a lot, they don't breathe at all. It is not that they are not breathing; it is that they are breathing in ways that prevent you from seeing breathing at a physical level, so as to prevent you from knowing their timing.

The process would be:

1. Breathe out

2. Breathe out with Kiai

3. Breathe out with silent kiai (all of the breath is expelled prior to kiai).

4. Kotodama-no-Gyo (practice of the practical study of kotodama) Does not actually correspond to where in the rythmn of breath you happen to be).

5. Kotodama-no-ho (application of kotodama) a synthesis of the other four levels plus Otakebi & Okorobi all focused through Chinkon-Kishin.

99% of martial artists never get beyond level two. Observing two individuals training at level three is interesting. Two individuals at level four, dangerous. Two at level 5, impossible.

Hope this is helpful.
Sincerely,
Jim

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#109387 - 06/15/04 10:05 AM Re: Kiai's
jgrowney Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 14
Loc: Rochester, NY
This link may be helpful as well.
http://www.shotokai.com/ingles/filosofia/mondozen.html

Jim

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