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#108924 - 01/08/05 08:10 AM acupuncture charts
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi
I was studying the english translation of the bubushi. I was wandering if someone know somewhere I can get a chart of acupuncture points or of vital and or non vital points. Plz it would help me understand it more.

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#108925 - 01/09/05 10:30 AM Re: acupuncture charts
Anonymous
Unregistered


Some good sights with charts:
http://www.yinyanghouse.com/index.html http://www.acuxo.com/index.asp

Hopefully these are helpful.

[This message has been edited by Kuma (edited 01-09-2005).]

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#108926 - 01/09/05 04:00 PM Re: acupuncture charts
Anonymous
Unregistered


Here are some additional links for pressure point charts and/or resources

1. http://www.k2labs.org/kungfusion/martial/kempo/points/points.htm

2. Red Wing Books (not sure of the url)

3. Qpuncture.com (you can also find a distributor at learnpressurepoints.com which has the software at substantial savings)

Hope this helps!

Peace!

FB

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#108927 - 01/10/05 04:01 PM Re: acupuncture charts
Anonymous
Unregistered


NO accu chart corresponds exactly to martial "vital points"; only vaguely. So the BEST source of depicted kyusho jutsu vital points would be somewhere like AWMA (Asian World Of Martial Arts) where I got 2 MEGA charts of attackable points of the human body. 2 of the SAME chart together were $5 bux! Needless to say, important as vital points are THEY ARE NOT THE END ALL AND BE ALL OF DEFENSIVE ARTS.

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#108928 - 01/11/05 08:24 AM Re: acupuncture charts
kempocos Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 516
Loc: flemington,nj,usa
Since reading the Bubishi sparked your interest, check out www.combatkyusho.com Rand wrote a great book where he did research on the vital points spelled out in the BUBISHI both translations Alexander and McCarthy. The book is called " the western bubishi there are some good articles at the site as well.

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#108929 - 01/11/05 09:28 AM Re: acupuncture charts
Anonymous
Unregistered


Where I found the english translation of the bubushi the guy also talked about those 2 translation by mcarthy and alexander. oh one more thing can smeone explain to me this chart
www.funkydragon.com/bushi/bubushi4.html
it gives some pp but some are wierd they say to hit at bl60( wich is situated behind the ankle) and u can kill the person but bl60 is not one of the 36 vital points so i jsut need someone to explain to me this chart including the time and everything in the chart.

[This message has been edited by inchrist (edited 01-11-2005).]

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#108930 - 01/11/05 03:54 PM Re: acupuncture charts
kempocos Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 516
Loc: flemington,nj,usa
Vital points and Pressure points are not the same. There is a lot more than what is covered in the Bubishi. Some feel that the Bubishi was someones training journal and not a text for karate in general as others believe.

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#108931 - 01/12/05 08:41 AM Re: acupuncture charts
Anonymous
Unregistered


rimrag-alpha:

Actually, for those of use that base our usage of vital points on Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM), then the acupuncture charts correspond exactly to the same points that we use martially...they are the same points. The only thing where a difference in location would come into play in this case is the location based on kun from an anatomical reference point...not everyone is the same, but close enough in most cases for government work.

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#108932 - 01/12/05 08:49 AM Re: acupuncture charts
Anonymous
Unregistered


Kempocos:

In regards to your two posts above...

Rand's book is good, I agree. But, it is not one that I would recommend to someone just trying to figure all of this out. I would recommend the DSI's little green reference book as it is cheap in price and gives you the since down and dirty. I really think you need a foundation such as that to attack something like Rand's book.

With all due respect, to YOU vital points and pressure points are not the same thing. We have been down this road before without much of a response from you (or did you respond and I missed it?). Yes, there is alot more than what is covered in the Bubishi. And if you read McCarthy's Bubishi translation then you get alot more than what is actually in the Bubishi. Be that as it may, it still does not change the fact that your opinion of vital points vs. pressure points is just that...your opinion. I think that stating it in the way that you do can be quite confusing to some folks as they are trying to educate themselves. Know what I mean?

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#108933 - 01/12/05 01:18 PM Re: acupuncture charts
kempocos Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 516
Loc: flemington,nj,usa
[QUOTE]Originally posted by meijin:
Kempocos:

In regards to your two posts above...

Rand's book is good, I agree. But, it is not one that I would recommend to someone just trying to figure all of this out. I would recommend the DSI's little green reference book as it is cheap in price and gives you the since down and dirty. I really think you need a foundation such as that to attack something like Rand's book.

With all due respect, to YOU vital points and pressure points are not the same thing. We have been down this road before without much of a response from you (or did you respond and I missed it?). Yes, there is alot more than what is covered in the Bubishi. And if you read McCarthy's Bubishi translation then you get alot more than what is actually in the Bubishi. Be that as it may, it still does not change the fact that your opinion of vital points vs. pressure points is just that...your opinion. I think that stating it in the way that you do can be quite confusing to some folks as they are trying to educate themselves. Know what I mean?
[/QUOTE]

I agree to start the little green book is a great place to start. I also feel things like the body alarm reation stuff in Rands book is good at any point in training.

So you are saying that Vital Points and Pressure points are the same thing. That there is no differance in the two.
Yes we have been down this road and perhaps you did not keep up to see the replies. But does that mean YOUR opinion is the prevailing one. I have seen many threads and there seems to be those3 who feel they are the same and those who do not. I guess it comes down to your instructors path.

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#108934 - 01/12/05 02:42 PM Re: acupuncture charts
Anonymous
Unregistered


Well...in a prior exchange that I had with you under the thread "Pressure points for newbies", you made the following comment:

"To clear up some comments Vital points and Pressure points are not the same. Some times a PP will be locate at a vital point but there are seprate. PP refer to the accpuncture points of the meridains. Vital points include places where organs are not protected or the chance of a muscle tear or tendion sepration is possable."

To which I made the following reply:

"I am sorry, but I really have to disagree with you. You are trying to "American-ize" words from other languages and make them fit into your view of vital points and pressure points. It is a matter of what you prefer and what you mean...not some hard and fast rule where it has to be one or the other and they are not interchangable.

If we look to the Japanese for a translation of kyusho, we get "vitals, tender spot, secret, key".

If we look at the Keiraku Chiryo (meridian therapy) or any other form of Japanese ryoho (healing methods), they use the term tsubo for the points...again meaning a vital point when translated.

In Zhongyao (traditional Chinese medicine) or Zhenjiu (acupuncture) that are based on the theories and principles of the jingluo (channels and collaterals), the points are called xue or "cavity".

In the Korean methods of Keupso or Hyel Do Sul (Hyol Do Sool), the keupsoh are translated as a vital point. The same is true in Chimsool (acupuncture) and Chiahosool (accupressure)...the hyel/hyol (points) lay on the Kyong Rak (Jeonggyong 12 Maeks and Kigyong 8 Maeks).

If we look to the Indian based arts of Kalarippayattu and Varma Ati, they utilize marmmam or marma...vital points. Varma Ati literally translated is vital point striking...and we are talking about points on the body that lay on nardi or energy channels that allow us access to the internal energetic system of the body. The same is true of the various Ayurvedic healing traditions.

So...you may draw a distinction for yourself that there is a difference between vital points and pressure points and what each means...but that is not what is borne out through research."

I'll go check the thread again, but after I made this post I never saw a response from you on the topic. Sorry if I missed it...but perhaps you will take this opportunity to enlighten me as to your evidence to the contrary.

I would also disagree that the opinion on this is based on your instructor's path. I firmly believe that the thoughts, beliefs and opinons of one's instructor can shape yours. However, I am a firm believer in the concept of Shu Ha Ri...meaning that (at my instructor's request) I question anything that he has to say and I expound upon it whenever possible through my own research and training. Sometimes to even discover that my instructor was wrong or mistaken about something.

Anyway, I look forward to your information on the difference between vital points and pressure points as you have described in the quote I gave above.

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#108935 - 01/12/05 03:11 PM Re: acupuncture charts
Anonymous
Unregistered


inchrist:

The table that you reference off of Victor Smith's site comes from the Bubishi and references what are called shichen points. Shichen is a Chinese measurement of time that encompasses two hours with a 24 hour day cycle being broken up into 12 shichen periods. Using the theory of qi flow in Zhongyaoxue (Traditional Chinese Medicine or TCM), qi flow is more "dominant" in different meridian systems during each of the 12 shichen. The points listed there are reportedly ones that can kill someone during that particular shichen period. I say reportedly because no one that I know has ever proven this to be the case...for obvious reasons. Additionally, I have seen no one explain why it is that these are the points to use during that shichen or how to use them (independently or in conjunction with one another).

For several years I have been compiling a very detailed analysis of the Bubishi that I hope to one day self-publish. If only my real job would slow down long enough to allow me to do so.

Anyway, I hope that was of some help to you.

BTW...be aware that the 36 vital points as listed in parts of McCarthy's translation of the Bubishi are not a part of the original, but his importing of them from other Chinese sources. Read what McCarthy writes carefully as this is often glossed over. For more info on the set of 36 vital points, do some research into Feng Yiyuan.

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#108936 - 01/13/05 07:24 AM Re: acupuncture charts
Anonymous
Unregistered


It explains some but its very confusing with all those terms its going to take me more then simply read your response but ill have to find out what certain words mean but that ok

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#108937 - 01/14/05 09:11 AM Re: acupuncture charts
Anonymous
Unregistered


inchrist:

Sorry...I thought I define all of the words I was using. Which ones are giving you a hard time?

BTW...Feng Yiyuan is a person.

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#108938 - 01/16/05 07:37 PM Re: acupuncture charts
Anonymous
Unregistered


well the following i dont understand qi , shichen

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#108939 - 01/17/05 12:02 PM Re: acupuncture charts
Anonymous
Unregistered


inchrist:

Well, qi is the life force energy of the body....

As to the shichen, I defined it in my post:

"Shichen is a Chinese measurement of time that encompasses two hours with a 24 hour day cycle being broken up into 12 shichen periods."

If you don't understand that, let me know and I can try a different approach.

HTH!

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