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#108696 - 10/07/04 02:11 PM Thoughts About Pressure Point KOs
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hello Everyone,

Let me start by saying that I'm not a stupid person. I was under the impression that pressure point knockouts if done correctly and not as an everyday thing coupled with the proper revival techniques were not dangerous.

I've seen so much information on the web from entire web sites to whole message board forums dedicated to pressure point knockouts. The video clips and videos themselves seem to be endless. I even saw a forum that was designed to aid beginners in acheiving their first KOs.

Then someone on this forum let me know to never let anyone knock me out using pressure points. (A little late but appreciated none the less) Now I don't know this person well but I have been reading this forum for some time and respect his opinion. IMHO he knows what he's talking about. One of my questions is why haven't I heard this before, was I just not looking in the right places?

I'm a CRNA and two people I train with are MDs. From a medical standpoint we are not dumb people, maybe ignorant of the truth though, which is what I'm trying to figure out.

I've been knocked out using pressure points more than a few times with no ill effects maybe I just have been getting lucky. At first I didn't believe you could knock someone out using pressure points without blasting them. I had been knocked unconscious in Muay Thai fights and worse taken some horrific shots that didn't knock me out so I was really skeptical about being able to knock someone out using pp's. I kept seeing and was still skeptical. I wasn't in a hurry to have it done to me since being knocked out in Muay Thai fights wasn't my favorite feeling. Finally I relented, got ko'd and was amazed. I woke up with no ill effects and went out without being blasted.

Sorry for rambling, but back to my original question regarding the safety of pressure point knockouts are they safe or not? and if not why are they so prevelant? are there just different schools of thought through different organizations and reaaly from teacher to teacher regarding knockouts?

Thanks
Jill

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#108697 - 10/11/04 06:32 AM Re: Thoughts About Pressure Point KOs
Anonymous
Unregistered


The old Chinese stylists believe that KOs are dangerous, but the more modern stylists, in particular DKI, HKI, and Kyusho International stylists will tell you that they are not dangerous.

I have heard that they affect you more on the spiritual plane than on the physical level.
I have been taken to every level of KO by my instructor, from just making my eyes flicker to out cold. I think that PP KOs are the freakiest sensation of all time [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]
but I'm not prepared to experiment on people that I know or care about, to the point of KO for any reason. Just so long as I get a reaction, I'm happy.

--Dave

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#108698 - 10/11/04 07:00 AM Re: Thoughts About Pressure Point KOs
kempocos Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 516
Loc: flemington,nj,usa
[QUOTE]Originally posted by tiejiawushi:
The old Chinese stylists believe that KOs are dangerous, but the more modern stylists, in particular DKI, HKI, and Kyusho International stylists will tell you that they are not dangerous.

I have heard that they affect you more on the spiritual plane than on the physical level.
I have been taken to every level of KO by my instructor, from just making my eyes flicker to out cold. I think that PP KOs are the freakiest sensation of all time [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]
but I'm not prepared to experiment on people that I know or care about, to the point of KO for any reason. Just so long as I get a reaction, I'm happy.

--Dave
[/QUOTE]

To qoute the very funny Chris Rock " yeah you can do it, But it doesn't make it a good idea" DKI and since much of KI are ex DKI also claim No Touch KO's, I am not banking on that information either. Many others who train KYUSHO/TUITE view their a appraoch to information less than accurate.

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#108699 - 10/13/04 08:41 AM Re: Thoughts About Pressure Point KOs
Anonymous
Unregistered


I've read very good material from folks who say all the knock-outs are dangerous. I was first exposed to the material from Dillman and now, more directly from Pantazi who was a student of Dillman. These guys incorporate knock-outs into their practice. I myself have done a couple. They say the light touch knock-out is not harmful but they put a lot of fine print there too. Don't attempt them on people over 40 years old or who are on medication or have health problems. Don't practice hitting pressure points for more than 15 min. a week. Don't practice on both sides of the body in the same session. Then of course, in their seminars, they break these rules. Lots of times, folks practicing are happy with a stage 1 knock-out. They don't need to have uke collapse on the floor. They want a little loss of balance and a dazed expression to know they have it right. If you look at Kyusho.com and check out Shihan Pantazi's next seminar at the first weekend in Nov. they are measuring brain waves on uke and torre during knock-outs. It is described in the forum section of the web site or you can e-mail him from the link on his site. You might want to go. Then in March there is a seminar in Mexico where there will be more medical studies also described on Evan's site. Check it out.

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#108700 - 10/16/04 09:28 AM Re: Thoughts About Pressure Point KOs
Anonymous
Unregistered


Pressure points have value but their biggest value is not the knock-out nor the no-touch knock-out. Those are just the more dramatic and attention getting effects. In those times when I have had to fight (at work where there is also help coming to help me) and in dojo reality, I use pp for their more practical contribution. They make your techniques work better. They give you better places to aim your strikes and with correct angle and direction. They give you the predictable uke response. Some pp release joints which gives you a split second advantage to effect a tuite. Its nice to know that ukes knee will buckle or turn out in response to a cross extensor reflex reaction. Then you can be ready to attack that knee. I don't care if I never do another knock-out in the dojo. If my life depended on it, I would fight for disfunction and not bet my life on the KO. Kyusho is going to make that easier for me. If I were to name the single most important benefit I have found, I'd say it would be with tuite because my hands are smaller and weaker than those of most men I might encounter. Kyusho makes my tuite work better. It isn't just the points themselves, but it is directing energy to the opposite quadrant. I can add sound to make it more effective or sound to help me stand a technique on me that I must endure for practice or while I counter. I'd say study good martial arts, whatever is appropriate for you. Then add kyusho. You will probably find the kyusho is already in your kata and in your techniques in large measure. Being intentional about it will just improve what you are trying to do anyway. - Rosanne

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#108701 - 10/18/04 10:18 AM Re: Thoughts About Pressure Point KOs
Anonymous
Unregistered


Rosanne,

Hi and thanks for your response. I agree that Kyusho is much more than just the KO. Jus out of curiosity though, you mentioned that you've done a few knockouts have you ever had a knockout done to you? Also when you've done ko's or seen them done have you noticed any differences in reaction or response when working with women rather than men?

Thanks
Jill

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#108702 - 10/18/04 05:12 PM Re: Thoughts About Pressure Point KOs
Akiba Offline
Member

Registered: 04/11/04
Posts: 365
Loc: London, UK
Pressure point knockouts working upon meridians can and do result in dis-ease of the bodies circulatory systems. However, I also believe that in todayís environments the very techniques of kata/Quan and massage revival are more prevalent (or at least becoming so) and this greatly reduces the long-term effects or risks of 'delayed' illness. (If the practices of kata/Quan are truly understood)

In my system the vital points and tsubo points are taught through the medium of shiatsu, and then a student is able to gain an 'intuitive' understanding of the bodyís systems. I have found teaching the subject matter in this way 'puts off' those with little respect or patience and leaves me with valued students.

The human body and mind is a complex and wonderful gift. The only evidence I've seen of the Dillman is when he gets a large student to stand up and then whacks them out with a touch technique. Of course even a child could perform this type of thing if shown how. And I guess thatís how I see Dillman; as a child with little actual ability. I'd be far more impressed if instead of standing like sheep the uke is seriously trying to 'take Dilmans head off'.

The mountain once went to Mohamed (Erle Montaigue interviews the Dilman technique) but was turned away. In my opinion Montaigue explains, demonstrates and offers far more insight into the art of Dim-Mak than his American counterpart and gives vast amounts of texts and movies away for free.

In Japan I witnessed a Goju Ryu master demonstrate a delayed technique upon a very inquisitive (to the point of annoying) American sensei. This guy had a red mark start to appear in the centre of his chest that got progressively worst as the day unfolded. (He didn't die 3-days later but I think the Old-Man was really just trying to shut him up for a while; it worked a treat)

Thatís it from me, if anyone does have any mpeg files of Dilman actually pulling something off (shall I rephrase that?) then please let me know.

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#108703 - 10/19/04 10:12 AM Re: Thoughts About Pressure Point KOs
Anonymous
Unregistered


Yes Jill. There are differences in executing a "head strike" to someone of the opposite sex due to polarity issues. These would be more pronounced away from center line. For example, the L.I. meridian actually crosses center line under the nose and so it is clear that polarity kind of rolls in and out like the taichi symbol. If you are striking a spot like St 5 half way back on the lower jaw where you can feel a nice little crater in the bone then it matters. If you are striking someone of the same sex, with a yang hand (fist or back hand) then you need to raise your heel. (if you are striking with your right hand to the left side of uke's face). Then of course, each mutation from there requires adjustment. Being female, and fighting men generally, I usually drill striking the opposite way. That fist strike above, would get the heel on the floor and I would raise my heel to strike with my palm (yin hand). I have had 2 people attempt to knock me out 3 times each. Neither could. I am kind of a joke in my school because the body points effect me very little and I am only sensative in my joints. This probably has something to do with the fact that I have Lupus. I have tried to knock out a female once and failed to do so. Another hypothesis why it would appear in this small population that it is harder to knock out women would be intent. I think it is probably hard for a normal man to strike a fifties year old women with intent, no matter how much they claim to be unbiased and capable of making an equal attempt. To tell the truth, I myself hit her quite a bit more lightly than I would have struck a male. BOttom line for me at my skill level today is that I wouldn't bet my life in a potentially lethal attack on defending myself with a light touch knock-out. I would have to go for much more damage. I'd go with my tuite and my striking. - Rosanne

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#108704 - 10/19/04 11:45 AM Re: Thoughts About Pressure Point KOs
kempocos Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 516
Loc: flemington,nj,usa
In reading this I think that some folks are spending far too much time on things that really do not effect the result of a technique.
Lifting the foot depending on the polarity and sex during a strike is taking the concepts to places that do help the outcome, but sound really mystical.
the excuses of why a KO did not work is common place in schools that try to rely too heavy on the result of Pressure Points in Kyusho ( striking) or TUITE ( GRAPPLING).

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#108705 - 10/19/04 01:30 PM Re: Thoughts About Pressure Point KOs
Anonymous
Unregistered


I agree actually. Still, I was just trying to answer the question as I understood it. It is a level of fine tuning that is beyond what I am going to do outside the dojo. I have notes from presentations and chapters in books on position of the tongue, sound, emotions (I know what emotion I'm likely to have while under attack from a potential murderer rapist and it isn't the right one). Under attack, I'm going to use "the most available weapon to the most available target". This has been drilled into me. The other lesson that I am going to remember is to forget all those cycle of this cycle of that, "just hit it". I'm not going to check my watch to see if it's spleen time or gall bladder time. Still the study itself, for itself, is facinating. I made a list, just to see how many factors I could remember, that effected your outcome. I counted about 30. Somebody else might get more or less. I love this stuff. By the way, I AM interested in other aproaches to pressure points. If anyone is in eastern Massachusetts or at least not more than 2 hours drive from my area that is not DKI or KI (my school is KI), I'd love to study Kyusho/Dim Mak with you. I'm open minded and always looking for suitable learning experiences for myself. One last thing that you should know Jill is that when one studies Kyusho, one also spends time studying healing, even more than what is needed to undo the damage one does by practice. I am responsible at each level of learning that I acquire in KI, for more healing and there is always a section on healing at seminars.

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#108706 - 10/19/04 06:22 PM Re: Thoughts About Pressure Point KOs
Anonymous
Unregistered


PP excecution in a controlled environment is the same as target practice on a fixed target. It is a hole different story trying to hit the bullseye on a moving target, especially a FAST moving target in the WILD!!!

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#108707 - 10/19/04 06:37 PM Re: Thoughts About Pressure Point KOs
Anonymous
Unregistered


Sorry about the "HOLE" it should be whole.

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#108708 - 10/19/04 08:58 PM Re: Thoughts About Pressure Point KOs
Anonymous
Unregistered


YOU can't hit them. YOU need more practice!

It's not that hard. Especially if you set them up in a combination or submission.

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#108709 - 10/20/04 06:51 AM Re: Thoughts About Pressure Point KOs
Anonymous
Unregistered


Mark Hill , tell me a little more about your TRUE life experiances, since you are so "practiced" and able to set up and hit these tiny PP in a fast action REALLLLL scrap, and I don't mean SENSITIVE general areas of the HUMAN body.

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#108710 - 10/20/04 09:39 AM Re: Thoughts About Pressure Point KOs
kempocos Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 516
Loc: flemington,nj,usa
the idea that you need to pinpoint hits to use PP is crap.

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#108711 - 10/20/04 03:16 PM Re: Thoughts About Pressure Point KOs
Anonymous
Unregistered


Kemp..
It all depends what your interpretation of PP is. Check out the acupuncture charts, and or pressure points charts, and tell me they art CRAP, as you put it.
You don't just aim or hit anywhere in any direction and stike a PP. It has to be on the money, Place - Angle - Force (after all you don't want to tickle the guy to death!)
Basicly you have to hit A POINT THAT IS SENSITIVE (THE MORE PRESICE THE BETTER)and I don't meant with a sowing needle eather as you seem to iterpret it.
GET REAL AND USE SOME COMMON SENSE INSTEAD OF COMMING TO YOUR CRAPY CONCLUSIONS

Now to come back to you Mark:
You said "Especially if you set them up in a combination or submission"
Fella, if you got them in a submission you don't need to go any further. If you set them up in a combination that is worth its oats, the adversary should be counting sheep.
See you boys in the movies

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#108712 - 10/20/04 05:35 PM Re: Thoughts About Pressure Point KOs
Anonymous
Unregistered


So, no one can escape from your nightmare or s lock?

I can hit you with an awesome hand and foot combo, and it won't do crap if you clock the head punches and you have body conditioning. If I hit the PP's it will make a hell of a difference (no gloves of course).

If you can hit a focus mitt accurately and repeatedly in the same spot, you can hit a PP.

Thigh kicks are aimed at PP's all the time, often without people even knowing.

Hardly cross stitch!

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#108713 - 10/21/04 11:16 AM Re: Thoughts About Pressure Point KOs
kempocos Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 516
Loc: flemington,nj,usa
[QUOTE]Originally posted by George:
Kemp..
It all depends what your interpretation of PP is. Check out the acupuncture charts, and or pressure points charts, and tell me they art CRAP, as you put it.
You don't just aim or hit anywhere in any direction and stike a PP. It has to be on the money, Place - Angle - Force (after all you don't want to tickle the guy to death!)
Basicly you have to hit A POINT THAT IS SENSITIVE (THE MORE PRESICE THE BETTER)and I don't meant with a sowing needle eather as you seem to iterpret it.
GET REAL AND USE SOME COMMON SENSE INSTEAD OF COMMING TO YOUR CRAPY CONCLUSIONS

Now to come back to you Mark:
You said "Especially if you set them up in a combination or submission"
Fella, if you got them in a submission you don't need to go any further. If you set them up in a combination that is worth its oats, the adversary should be counting sheep.
See you boys in the movies
[/QUOTE]


I stated the " the idea that you need to pinpoint hits to use PP is crap." Meaning that those who state you can only activate point X by tapping it on a 45 degree angle to make it work IS FULL OF CRAP. I do not say needle, however once the chemical dump hits the blood the coordination to achieve small target hits and small joint manipulation is lost. Read about Body Alarm Reaction. I know many use this to refer to the reaction you look fr when doing a technique, but there is much more to it.
I trained with or have been to seminars by Oyatas group, Dillamns group, Patzi's KI, Muncy/Moneymakers group and what I have found is those who dwell too much on the rub / tap light touch knockouts tend to have techniques that fail once any resistance and intent is provided by the attacker.
I feel Oyatas group are the best at this, Muncy/ Moneymaker are in line with Oyatas group in application of concepts.

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#108714 - 11/02/04 03:10 PM Re: Thoughts About Pressure Point KOs
Anonymous
Unregistered


In response to your initial question, yes getting hit on points is bad for you, and any MD should be able to tell you that. You're getting hit in nerves or arteries, which can be damaged like any superficial structure. I don't care if it's brachial plexus, spinal nerves, a vagus nerve or a caratoid artery, it is bad for you. Striking w/the fingertips or with one protruding knuckle decreases the surface area of the strike and increases the lbs/sq inch, making it more focused, more devastating to the structure taking the blow. Skip the next seminar..save your $ and take a gross anatomy class w/a cadavre, and you'll see firsthand what is being hit... you should know this from your physiology, but say striking the vagus nerve on the various neck points, will slow the heart, dialate the vessels, and increase productivity of the GI, which is why people often have upset stomachs or the craps after sustaining these blows. Oyata has damaged students and that's why he stopped.

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#108715 - 11/02/04 07:45 PM Re: Thoughts About Pressure Point KOs
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Anybody remember when that news crew went into one of Dillman's high ranking students schools?

The small female reporter volunteered to have them try the PP KO on her.

It didn't work. They tried several times -- with the same results. Of course, it worked on HIS STUDENTS.


Then they went down the street to a BJJ school and tried it on the guys who were rolling there. It didn't work on ANY of them either.

This was all caught on film. I believe its now on Bullshido.

Interesting?


-John

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 11-02-2004).]

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#108716 - 02/05/05 12:13 PM Re: Thoughts About Pressure Point KOs
Anonymous
Unregistered


hi everyone i am new here at the forum and i like this subject. I have been knocked out with pressure point and have knocked people out with pressure points. It is good for in the street and so is grappling But anytime you knock them out you take a chance of killing people and the same goes for chokes .If i were in a street fight then im going to do what it takes and if im in a choke then i would fight it every step of the way, and all of this stuff is dangerous and im not knocking people out now and im not going to let them do it to me ,oh and a choke is a knock out.

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#108717 - 02/06/05 01:39 PM Re: Thoughts About Pressure Point KOs
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by George:
You don't just aim or hit anywhere in any direction and stike a PP. It has to be on the money, Place - Angle - Force (after all you don't want to tickle the guy to death!)
[/QUOTE]

Pressure points do not have to be 'right on the money'. They do, however, have to be fairly accurate. The angle, as well, does have to be fairly accurate. Force is another story. Using one technique and the same points, I can vary the force used on the set-up points (these activate the actual knockout points) and and the KO point itself. Simple explanation: the more force you use with the set-up points, the less you must use on the KO point. I've done several KOs and been KO'd myself several times due to PPs. One of the most memorable incidents invovled someone using TW-17 to KO me. They hit in between the base of the neck and TW-17, a good bit away from the point, but I was still nerely KO'd. There's no doubt in my mind that I could use pressure points in a real 'SCRAP'.
And in response to your question sunchaser, read EricW's post. That should answer some of it. Also, if you walk up to someone and say 'I'm gonna KO you with PPs', say in a seminar, and the person has high blood pressure, has used drugs recently or has been drinking recently (or even if he or she is wearing a lot of jewelry), the pressure points' effectiveness is greatly increased. Using TW-17 on someone with high blood pressure could potentiall kill. In other words, I think the person that said you shouldn't use PP's meant to make sure that you know what you're doing and who your partner is. If it's in a fight, use what you have to in order to get out alive. As far as I know (I've been knocked out plenty of times and I'm still not worried about it), pressure points aren't really harmful if the above statements are took into consideraton. Hope that cleared it up some for you.

[This message has been edited by ShotokanJujutsu (edited 02-06-2005).]

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#108718 - 02/17/05 11:27 AM Re: Thoughts About Pressure Point KOs
Anonymous
Unregistered


The whole knockout issue has become a problem of late for us Kyusho Practitioners. They are not a guarantee. They also seem to block out the bigger picture. People are so hung up on the knockouts that they miss the true meaning of Kyusho. Kyusho is meant to be added to your techniques. Your style or system is the delivery method, the points are the target. What Kyusho does is allow us to access the neurological system more effectively to cause dramatic pain, compliance and control. To make a technique more effective and with less effort. There are several organization out there that actually base their whole ranking structure on knockouts, how many you can do and how you can do them. So if you are interested in the pressure points, forget the knockouts and study. Knockouts are just one result you may get. Wally Jay said "Pain makes believers" , well from experience knockouts generally dont hurt, but pressure points in joint locks or getting whacked on one does. So if we want people to believe in pressure points, make em hurt!

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#108719 - 02/17/05 01:38 PM Re: Thoughts About Pressure Point KOs
Anonymous
Unregistered


Mr. Brown:

While I agree whole heartedly with the over all comments and sentiments of your post, there are a couple of points that I would make...

You said:
"What Kyusho does is allow us to access the neurological system more effectively to cause dramatic pain, compliance and control."

I would change a few things with that statement. First, it is not just the neurological system that kyusho allows us to access. It allows us to also access the circulatory system of the body, the muscular and tendon system of the body and the energetic system of the body. I certainly know and understand that some practioneers of kyusho approach it strictly from the more Western Medical perspective that deals primarily (and sometimes exclusively) with the neurological system. I, personally, prefer a more traditional approach based on the theories and principles of Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) or Zhongyixue in Chinese. And...just to insert this into the mix for those that don't know and/or don't do the research, the TCM paradigm includes all that you would find in the MWM approach (i.e. local anatomy, bone/joint alignment/structure, muscles, tendons, etc.). All you need do to prove that there is more to it than just the neurological aspect is look to the categories of techniques within what we do...it is much more encompassing than just the neurological aspects.

Second, kyusho is used (in my opinion) for more than "causing dramatic pain, compliance and control". It is used to KO people. And, it is also used for killing. When performing kata bunkai, extracting the oyo and developing various henka...some of this is plain out for killing. Not politically correct today, but none the less the truth. Again, this is documented and can be proven without much speculation at all. Does this mean that one cannot practice kyusho strictly within the confines of the parameters that you mention? No...they certainly can. But from a more "traditionalist" point of view I wanted to bring that out.

Again, you are preaching to the choir when it comes to the topic as you have defined it...I just wanted to clarify a point or two from the perspective of the folks that follow the TCM paradigm.

BTW...I am not familiar with an organization that bases their rank on KOs that can be performed. Can you elaborate on this for me? I am curious to know which organization it is.

Thanks!

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#108720 - 02/17/05 01:45 PM Re: Thoughts About Pressure Point KOs
Anonymous
Unregistered


ShotokanJujutsu:

While I understand what it is that you are trying to say with regards to "setup points", I would really disagree with how you said it.

The amount of force used on a setup point is not directly proportionate to the amount of force that would then be necessary to KO someone on another point. the goal of the setup is to create a "chink" in the armor of an individual's energetic system that can then be quickly exploited. Often times, a simple wrist grab or slight pressure (i.e. less than a strike) to a setup point is all that is required. While not always a hard and fast rule, it would not always be required to use a large or massive amount of force on the setup points. the more subtle you can be, the more effective and safe your art can and will be. That is how the folks that have mastered this stuff make it look so deceptively simple.

My opinion, your milage may vary.

Michael

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#108721 - 02/18/05 12:04 PM Re: Thoughts About Pressure Point KOs
Anonymous
Unregistered


Meijin,

You are absolutely correct. Kyusho can be used to access all of the bodies system. And the art was developed as a deadly one. I used what I stated as more of an example than a standard.

Simply put, just because someone can do a knockout or cant do one on that individual does not necessarily mean that the said individual is an less effective or skilled. This is what many are missing. They go to a seminar to see the "famous" knockouts and when one does not occur, they go back and slander the person as unskilled or a "fraud".

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Accurate information on the ancient martial traditions of the Japanese samurai

C2 Taser
Protect yourself and loved ones from CRIME with the latest C2 Taser citizen model. Very effective.

 

 



Unbreakable Unbrella

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