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#108716 - 02/05/05 12:13 PM Re: Thoughts About Pressure Point KOs

hi everyone i am new here at the forum and i like this subject. I have been knocked out with pressure point and have knocked people out with pressure points. It is good for in the street and so is grappling But anytime you knock them out you take a chance of killing people and the same goes for chokes .If i were in a street fight then im going to do what it takes and if im in a choke then i would fight it every step of the way, and all of this stuff is dangerous and im not knocking people out now and im not going to let them do it to me ,oh and a choke is a knock out.

#108717 - 02/06/05 01:39 PM Re: Thoughts About Pressure Point KOs

[QUOTE]Originally posted by George:
You don't just aim or hit anywhere in any direction and stike a PP. It has to be on the money, Place - Angle - Force (after all you don't want to tickle the guy to death!)

Pressure points do not have to be 'right on the money'. They do, however, have to be fairly accurate. The angle, as well, does have to be fairly accurate. Force is another story. Using one technique and the same points, I can vary the force used on the set-up points (these activate the actual knockout points) and and the KO point itself. Simple explanation: the more force you use with the set-up points, the less you must use on the KO point. I've done several KOs and been KO'd myself several times due to PPs. One of the most memorable incidents invovled someone using TW-17 to KO me. They hit in between the base of the neck and TW-17, a good bit away from the point, but I was still nerely KO'd. There's no doubt in my mind that I could use pressure points in a real 'SCRAP'.
And in response to your question sunchaser, read EricW's post. That should answer some of it. Also, if you walk up to someone and say 'I'm gonna KO you with PPs', say in a seminar, and the person has high blood pressure, has used drugs recently or has been drinking recently (or even if he or she is wearing a lot of jewelry), the pressure points' effectiveness is greatly increased. Using TW-17 on someone with high blood pressure could potentiall kill. In other words, I think the person that said you shouldn't use PP's meant to make sure that you know what you're doing and who your partner is. If it's in a fight, use what you have to in order to get out alive. As far as I know (I've been knocked out plenty of times and I'm still not worried about it), pressure points aren't really harmful if the above statements are took into consideraton. Hope that cleared it up some for you.

[This message has been edited by ShotokanJujutsu (edited 02-06-2005).]

#108718 - 02/17/05 11:27 AM Re: Thoughts About Pressure Point KOs

The whole knockout issue has become a problem of late for us Kyusho Practitioners. They are not a guarantee. They also seem to block out the bigger picture. People are so hung up on the knockouts that they miss the true meaning of Kyusho. Kyusho is meant to be added to your techniques. Your style or system is the delivery method, the points are the target. What Kyusho does is allow us to access the neurological system more effectively to cause dramatic pain, compliance and control. To make a technique more effective and with less effort. There are several organization out there that actually base their whole ranking structure on knockouts, how many you can do and how you can do them. So if you are interested in the pressure points, forget the knockouts and study. Knockouts are just one result you may get. Wally Jay said "Pain makes believers" , well from experience knockouts generally dont hurt, but pressure points in joint locks or getting whacked on one does. So if we want people to believe in pressure points, make em hurt!

#108719 - 02/17/05 01:38 PM Re: Thoughts About Pressure Point KOs

Mr. Brown:

While I agree whole heartedly with the over all comments and sentiments of your post, there are a couple of points that I would make...

You said:
"What Kyusho does is allow us to access the neurological system more effectively to cause dramatic pain, compliance and control."

I would change a few things with that statement. First, it is not just the neurological system that kyusho allows us to access. It allows us to also access the circulatory system of the body, the muscular and tendon system of the body and the energetic system of the body. I certainly know and understand that some practioneers of kyusho approach it strictly from the more Western Medical perspective that deals primarily (and sometimes exclusively) with the neurological system. I, personally, prefer a more traditional approach based on the theories and principles of Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) or Zhongyixue in Chinese. And...just to insert this into the mix for those that don't know and/or don't do the research, the TCM paradigm includes all that you would find in the MWM approach (i.e. local anatomy, bone/joint alignment/structure, muscles, tendons, etc.). All you need do to prove that there is more to it than just the neurological aspect is look to the categories of techniques within what we is much more encompassing than just the neurological aspects.

Second, kyusho is used (in my opinion) for more than "causing dramatic pain, compliance and control". It is used to KO people. And, it is also used for killing. When performing kata bunkai, extracting the oyo and developing various henka...some of this is plain out for killing. Not politically correct today, but none the less the truth. Again, this is documented and can be proven without much speculation at all. Does this mean that one cannot practice kyusho strictly within the confines of the parameters that you mention? No...they certainly can. But from a more "traditionalist" point of view I wanted to bring that out.

Again, you are preaching to the choir when it comes to the topic as you have defined it...I just wanted to clarify a point or two from the perspective of the folks that follow the TCM paradigm.

BTW...I am not familiar with an organization that bases their rank on KOs that can be performed. Can you elaborate on this for me? I am curious to know which organization it is.


#108720 - 02/17/05 01:45 PM Re: Thoughts About Pressure Point KOs


While I understand what it is that you are trying to say with regards to "setup points", I would really disagree with how you said it.

The amount of force used on a setup point is not directly proportionate to the amount of force that would then be necessary to KO someone on another point. the goal of the setup is to create a "chink" in the armor of an individual's energetic system that can then be quickly exploited. Often times, a simple wrist grab or slight pressure (i.e. less than a strike) to a setup point is all that is required. While not always a hard and fast rule, it would not always be required to use a large or massive amount of force on the setup points. the more subtle you can be, the more effective and safe your art can and will be. That is how the folks that have mastered this stuff make it look so deceptively simple.

My opinion, your milage may vary.


#108721 - 02/18/05 12:04 PM Re: Thoughts About Pressure Point KOs


You are absolutely correct. Kyusho can be used to access all of the bodies system. And the art was developed as a deadly one. I used what I stated as more of an example than a standard.

Simply put, just because someone can do a knockout or cant do one on that individual does not necessarily mean that the said individual is an less effective or skilled. This is what many are missing. They go to a seminar to see the "famous" knockouts and when one does not occur, they go back and slander the person as unskilled or a "fraud".

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