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#108696 - 10/07/04 02:11 PM Thoughts About Pressure Point KOs
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hello Everyone,

Let me start by saying that I'm not a stupid person. I was under the impression that pressure point knockouts if done correctly and not as an everyday thing coupled with the proper revival techniques were not dangerous.

I've seen so much information on the web from entire web sites to whole message board forums dedicated to pressure point knockouts. The video clips and videos themselves seem to be endless. I even saw a forum that was designed to aid beginners in acheiving their first KOs.

Then someone on this forum let me know to never let anyone knock me out using pressure points. (A little late but appreciated none the less) Now I don't know this person well but I have been reading this forum for some time and respect his opinion. IMHO he knows what he's talking about. One of my questions is why haven't I heard this before, was I just not looking in the right places?

I'm a CRNA and two people I train with are MDs. From a medical standpoint we are not dumb people, maybe ignorant of the truth though, which is what I'm trying to figure out.

I've been knocked out using pressure points more than a few times with no ill effects maybe I just have been getting lucky. At first I didn't believe you could knock someone out using pressure points without blasting them. I had been knocked unconscious in Muay Thai fights and worse taken some horrific shots that didn't knock me out so I was really skeptical about being able to knock someone out using pp's. I kept seeing and was still skeptical. I wasn't in a hurry to have it done to me since being knocked out in Muay Thai fights wasn't my favorite feeling. Finally I relented, got ko'd and was amazed. I woke up with no ill effects and went out without being blasted.

Sorry for rambling, but back to my original question regarding the safety of pressure point knockouts are they safe or not? and if not why are they so prevelant? are there just different schools of thought through different organizations and reaaly from teacher to teacher regarding knockouts?

Thanks
Jill

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#108697 - 10/11/04 06:32 AM Re: Thoughts About Pressure Point KOs
Anonymous
Unregistered


The old Chinese stylists believe that KOs are dangerous, but the more modern stylists, in particular DKI, HKI, and Kyusho International stylists will tell you that they are not dangerous.

I have heard that they affect you more on the spiritual plane than on the physical level.
I have been taken to every level of KO by my instructor, from just making my eyes flicker to out cold. I think that PP KOs are the freakiest sensation of all time [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]
but I'm not prepared to experiment on people that I know or care about, to the point of KO for any reason. Just so long as I get a reaction, I'm happy.

--Dave

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#108698 - 10/11/04 07:00 AM Re: Thoughts About Pressure Point KOs
kempocos Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 516
Loc: flemington,nj,usa
[QUOTE]Originally posted by tiejiawushi:
The old Chinese stylists believe that KOs are dangerous, but the more modern stylists, in particular DKI, HKI, and Kyusho International stylists will tell you that they are not dangerous.

I have heard that they affect you more on the spiritual plane than on the physical level.
I have been taken to every level of KO by my instructor, from just making my eyes flicker to out cold. I think that PP KOs are the freakiest sensation of all time [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]
but I'm not prepared to experiment on people that I know or care about, to the point of KO for any reason. Just so long as I get a reaction, I'm happy.

--Dave
[/QUOTE]

To qoute the very funny Chris Rock " yeah you can do it, But it doesn't make it a good idea" DKI and since much of KI are ex DKI also claim No Touch KO's, I am not banking on that information either. Many others who train KYUSHO/TUITE view their a appraoch to information less than accurate.

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#108699 - 10/13/04 08:41 AM Re: Thoughts About Pressure Point KOs
Anonymous
Unregistered


I've read very good material from folks who say all the knock-outs are dangerous. I was first exposed to the material from Dillman and now, more directly from Pantazi who was a student of Dillman. These guys incorporate knock-outs into their practice. I myself have done a couple. They say the light touch knock-out is not harmful but they put a lot of fine print there too. Don't attempt them on people over 40 years old or who are on medication or have health problems. Don't practice hitting pressure points for more than 15 min. a week. Don't practice on both sides of the body in the same session. Then of course, in their seminars, they break these rules. Lots of times, folks practicing are happy with a stage 1 knock-out. They don't need to have uke collapse on the floor. They want a little loss of balance and a dazed expression to know they have it right. If you look at Kyusho.com and check out Shihan Pantazi's next seminar at the first weekend in Nov. they are measuring brain waves on uke and torre during knock-outs. It is described in the forum section of the web site or you can e-mail him from the link on his site. You might want to go. Then in March there is a seminar in Mexico where there will be more medical studies also described on Evan's site. Check it out.

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#108700 - 10/16/04 09:28 AM Re: Thoughts About Pressure Point KOs
Anonymous
Unregistered


Pressure points have value but their biggest value is not the knock-out nor the no-touch knock-out. Those are just the more dramatic and attention getting effects. In those times when I have had to fight (at work where there is also help coming to help me) and in dojo reality, I use pp for their more practical contribution. They make your techniques work better. They give you better places to aim your strikes and with correct angle and direction. They give you the predictable uke response. Some pp release joints which gives you a split second advantage to effect a tuite. Its nice to know that ukes knee will buckle or turn out in response to a cross extensor reflex reaction. Then you can be ready to attack that knee. I don't care if I never do another knock-out in the dojo. If my life depended on it, I would fight for disfunction and not bet my life on the KO. Kyusho is going to make that easier for me. If I were to name the single most important benefit I have found, I'd say it would be with tuite because my hands are smaller and weaker than those of most men I might encounter. Kyusho makes my tuite work better. It isn't just the points themselves, but it is directing energy to the opposite quadrant. I can add sound to make it more effective or sound to help me stand a technique on me that I must endure for practice or while I counter. I'd say study good martial arts, whatever is appropriate for you. Then add kyusho. You will probably find the kyusho is already in your kata and in your techniques in large measure. Being intentional about it will just improve what you are trying to do anyway. - Rosanne

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#108701 - 10/18/04 10:18 AM Re: Thoughts About Pressure Point KOs
Anonymous
Unregistered


Rosanne,

Hi and thanks for your response. I agree that Kyusho is much more than just the KO. Jus out of curiosity though, you mentioned that you've done a few knockouts have you ever had a knockout done to you? Also when you've done ko's or seen them done have you noticed any differences in reaction or response when working with women rather than men?

Thanks
Jill

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#108702 - 10/18/04 05:12 PM Re: Thoughts About Pressure Point KOs
Akiba Offline
Member

Registered: 04/11/04
Posts: 365
Loc: London, UK
Pressure point knockouts working upon meridians can and do result in dis-ease of the bodies circulatory systems. However, I also believe that in todayís environments the very techniques of kata/Quan and massage revival are more prevalent (or at least becoming so) and this greatly reduces the long-term effects or risks of 'delayed' illness. (If the practices of kata/Quan are truly understood)

In my system the vital points and tsubo points are taught through the medium of shiatsu, and then a student is able to gain an 'intuitive' understanding of the bodyís systems. I have found teaching the subject matter in this way 'puts off' those with little respect or patience and leaves me with valued students.

The human body and mind is a complex and wonderful gift. The only evidence I've seen of the Dillman is when he gets a large student to stand up and then whacks them out with a touch technique. Of course even a child could perform this type of thing if shown how. And I guess thatís how I see Dillman; as a child with little actual ability. I'd be far more impressed if instead of standing like sheep the uke is seriously trying to 'take Dilmans head off'.

The mountain once went to Mohamed (Erle Montaigue interviews the Dilman technique) but was turned away. In my opinion Montaigue explains, demonstrates and offers far more insight into the art of Dim-Mak than his American counterpart and gives vast amounts of texts and movies away for free.

In Japan I witnessed a Goju Ryu master demonstrate a delayed technique upon a very inquisitive (to the point of annoying) American sensei. This guy had a red mark start to appear in the centre of his chest that got progressively worst as the day unfolded. (He didn't die 3-days later but I think the Old-Man was really just trying to shut him up for a while; it worked a treat)

Thatís it from me, if anyone does have any mpeg files of Dilman actually pulling something off (shall I rephrase that?) then please let me know.

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#108703 - 10/19/04 10:12 AM Re: Thoughts About Pressure Point KOs
Anonymous
Unregistered


Yes Jill. There are differences in executing a "head strike" to someone of the opposite sex due to polarity issues. These would be more pronounced away from center line. For example, the L.I. meridian actually crosses center line under the nose and so it is clear that polarity kind of rolls in and out like the taichi symbol. If you are striking a spot like St 5 half way back on the lower jaw where you can feel a nice little crater in the bone then it matters. If you are striking someone of the same sex, with a yang hand (fist or back hand) then you need to raise your heel. (if you are striking with your right hand to the left side of uke's face). Then of course, each mutation from there requires adjustment. Being female, and fighting men generally, I usually drill striking the opposite way. That fist strike above, would get the heel on the floor and I would raise my heel to strike with my palm (yin hand). I have had 2 people attempt to knock me out 3 times each. Neither could. I am kind of a joke in my school because the body points effect me very little and I am only sensative in my joints. This probably has something to do with the fact that I have Lupus. I have tried to knock out a female once and failed to do so. Another hypothesis why it would appear in this small population that it is harder to knock out women would be intent. I think it is probably hard for a normal man to strike a fifties year old women with intent, no matter how much they claim to be unbiased and capable of making an equal attempt. To tell the truth, I myself hit her quite a bit more lightly than I would have struck a male. BOttom line for me at my skill level today is that I wouldn't bet my life in a potentially lethal attack on defending myself with a light touch knock-out. I would have to go for much more damage. I'd go with my tuite and my striking. - Rosanne

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#108704 - 10/19/04 11:45 AM Re: Thoughts About Pressure Point KOs
kempocos Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 516
Loc: flemington,nj,usa
In reading this I think that some folks are spending far too much time on things that really do not effect the result of a technique.
Lifting the foot depending on the polarity and sex during a strike is taking the concepts to places that do help the outcome, but sound really mystical.
the excuses of why a KO did not work is common place in schools that try to rely too heavy on the result of Pressure Points in Kyusho ( striking) or TUITE ( GRAPPLING).

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#108705 - 10/19/04 01:30 PM Re: Thoughts About Pressure Point KOs
Anonymous
Unregistered


I agree actually. Still, I was just trying to answer the question as I understood it. It is a level of fine tuning that is beyond what I am going to do outside the dojo. I have notes from presentations and chapters in books on position of the tongue, sound, emotions (I know what emotion I'm likely to have while under attack from a potential murderer rapist and it isn't the right one). Under attack, I'm going to use "the most available weapon to the most available target". This has been drilled into me. The other lesson that I am going to remember is to forget all those cycle of this cycle of that, "just hit it". I'm not going to check my watch to see if it's spleen time or gall bladder time. Still the study itself, for itself, is facinating. I made a list, just to see how many factors I could remember, that effected your outcome. I counted about 30. Somebody else might get more or less. I love this stuff. By the way, I AM interested in other aproaches to pressure points. If anyone is in eastern Massachusetts or at least not more than 2 hours drive from my area that is not DKI or KI (my school is KI), I'd love to study Kyusho/Dim Mak with you. I'm open minded and always looking for suitable learning experiences for myself. One last thing that you should know Jill is that when one studies Kyusho, one also spends time studying healing, even more than what is needed to undo the damage one does by practice. I am responsible at each level of learning that I acquire in KI, for more healing and there is always a section on healing at seminars.

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