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#108658 - 12/17/04 01:46 PM Re: Kata Kin Ken (Golden Fist)
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Those of you who've seen the Kin Ken video tape, I'm glad you found it well done.

Now for the larger questions.

Is the video good enough that you will try and learn the form from the video?

Are the technqiues shown clearly enough so that you'll really work on them?

If you're an instructor will you incorporate this training into your teachings?

Does the tape meet your needs, or do you believe you still need a live instructor to obtain what the tape shows?

I'm curious about how people utilize tapes and this one seems to be well received.

The most valuable tapes I have came from clinics and trainings I've undergone and were taped. And even with valuable material I always find it takes about 5 years before I can fit it into my students program of instruction. Some times because those training are not ready for the material, but largely because to use something else I have to change, slow down or drop another training to use it. And I find what we're already doing of value, not to diminish the new, but just to reinforce the effort to use it takes on a life of its own.

Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu

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#108659 - 12/17/04 02:07 PM Re: Kata Kin Ken (Golden Fist)
Anonymous
Unregistered


Kempocos, I think Gary Rooks and Jim Corn are the guys you want if you're looking for proof of Kiai-jutsu.

Underdog, you're a Pantazi student? I used to be a internet student of his, and go to his UK seminars, but have been a bit laz recently and let thigns slip. Bloody university, bloody beer!

I really want to get right back to where I was, and finally test!


Mark.

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#108660 - 12/17/04 03:00 PM Re: Kata Kin Ken (Golden Fist)
Anonymous
Unregistered


Victor Smith- It would be hard to learn the kata from the DVD and the instructors explain that this is not their focus. You don't need to know the kata at all to use the DVD, although I was lucky in that I was able to learn the kata from my teacher, who learned it from Master Pantazi. Each instructor in the DVD goes over the moves piece by piece before he addresses just that piece. The material is applicable and trainable. I've taken ideas from it and brought them back to the dojo and practiced them with other people. The DVD is really densely packed with material. There is plenty there to practice for a very long time.

Mark- My school is a K.I. School and so my kyusho training is the program created by Evan Pantazi. I personally no longer study directly with Master Pantazi because I am not advanced enough. I used to be part of a class that trained with him when I first became a black belt but with the advent of Kyusho International, that class got redefined in a way that excluded me. My teachers study with him directly. I hope to reach the level required to get back into that class but I might be dreaming bigger than reality will deliver. Anyway, I keep trying. Master Pantazi is an awesome teacher. Jim Hulse is a K.I. developer in UK and Master Pantazi is having seminars for his international students. Check the web site for details Kyusho.com. in the seminars section. There may be something there to get you back in the program. He also still has the internet course I believe, but check the site.

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#108661 - 12/17/04 05:35 PM Re: Kata Kin Ken (Golden Fist)
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Underdog,

Thank you for your reply, my interest is solely in trying to understand the video offering.

I actually live quite close to Mr. Pantazi, but my own interests do not lie in the shape of his art, no slight intended. After my own 30+ years of study I'm not seeking more instruction outside of my own studies.

As one of my instructors was a student of Mr. Pai, if I wanted the form I would be intersted in the Pai Lum version, but I already have enough Chinese studies in various systems and Tai Chi to keep us busy for a long time.

I do find good video instruction interesting, but having too many as it, of all sorts, is I can't justify spending anything on more things I won't get around to watch. My own preference has always been on live instruction.

There is such diversity in intense training that works, it is good to see somebody craft what they're doing well.

I'm also interested in how people use the information available. Since your in his lineage and have studies on that form I can see where it would be of value to you.

Thanks again,

Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu

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#108662 - 01/31/05 06:48 PM Re: Kata Kin Ken (Golden Fist)
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kuma:
Kempocos you are 100% correct.

1) -Mr. Oyata was forced to leave Mr. Nakamura’s Okinawa Kenpo Renmei after visiting the US in 1968 for reportedly for showing techniques he was asked not to.

2) -Mr. Dillman puts out books and videos with subject matter that he was advised not to.

3) -Mr. Pantazi puts out a DVD with a kata and bunkai that he was asked not to.

4) -Was Mr. Nakamura upset about what Oyata did?
Yes.

5) -Was Mr. Oyata upset about what Dillman did?
Yes.

[/QUOTE]

1) Who told you that? That is total BS. Mr. Oyata and several others left Nakamura's dojo for other reasons NOT related to technique or going to the US.

2) Dillman went to 6 seminars given by my teacher….he trained very little but instead chose to video tape others training.
3) The blind leading the blind I would say.
4) No, for reasons given above.
5) I think Mr. Oyata doesn’t really care about Dillman. He never mentions him. His main concern was Dillman hadn’t learned enough to show the art correctly.

[This message has been edited by RyuShikan Tokyo (edited 01-31-2005).]

[This message has been edited by RyuShikan Tokyo (edited 01-31-2005).]

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#108663 - 01/31/05 06:57 PM Re: Kata Kin Ken (Golden Fist)
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by kempocos:
I have seen many claims such as TUITE being a uniquly HOGAN word, funny I learned it from Oyata.
[/QUOTE]

Tuite is a word that was coined by my teacher (Seiyu Oyata) to describe the grappling art that he teaches. It is a combination of Okinawan & Japanese. Tui = tori in Japanese and Te = di in Okinawan. Okinawan = tuidi, Japanese = torite.
Mr. Oyata’s version Tuite

kempocos,

Could you do me a favor and shoot me an email.

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#108664 - 02/06/05 11:22 AM Re: Kata Kin Ken (Golden Fist)
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by RyuShikan Tokyo:
Dillman went to 6 seminars given by my teacher.he trained very little but instead chose to video tape others training. [/QUOTE]
6 seminars and then was promoted to 7th degree, pretty impressive ranking system?

[QUOTE] Originally posted by RyuShikan Tokyo:
I think Mr. Oyata doesn’t really care about Dillman. He never mentions him. His main concern was Dillman hadn’t learned enough to show the art correctly. [/QUOTE]
I think he cared enough to switch the name of his art about the same time Dillman started using Ryukyu Kempo.

[QUOTE] Originally posted by RyuShikan Tokyo:
The blind leading the blind I would say. [/QUOTE]
Listen, I'm not trying to argue with you about anything. As I've said before I left the DKI almost 10 years ago because of differences. But I believe there are a lot of people out there doing more harm to martial arts than Mr. Dillman. There is a reason why it’s called "Pressure Point Theory" and not "Pressure Point Fact," and there are as many theories as there are instructors. Is everyone else wrong? Or just different? I also went on to study with Mr. Saed in the Oyata system for a few years. Funny, I didn’t see that much difference.

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#108665 - 02/23/05 06:54 AM Re: Kata Kin Ken (Golden Fist)
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kuma:

1) 6 seminars and then was promoted to 7th degree, pretty impressive ranking system?
2) I think he cared enough to switch the name of his art about the same time Dillman started using Ryukyu Kempo.

3) I also went on to study with Mr. Saed in the Oyata system for a few years. Funny, I didn’t see that much difference.
[/QUOTE]

1) That rank was one of those “Honorary” types and didn’t come from hard work and sweat that’s for sure. Had he known Dillman was such a snake I doubt he would have given him anything.


2) Dillman was using Ryukyu Kempo shortly after meeting Mr. Oyata in the early 1980’s. Mr. Oyata changed the name of his organization around 1994.
3) I was around before Dillman ever showed up and I can see the difference…in fact I see a big difference. Footwork for starters and hand postion etc….

[This message has been edited by RyuShikan Tokyo (edited 02-23-2005).]

[This message has been edited by RyuShikan Tokyo (edited 02-23-2005).]

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#108666 - 03/25/05 10:55 PM Re: Kata Kin Ken (Golden Fist)
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hello Gentlemen,

Its interesting how this form and recent DVD has created a stir.
I first heard about it through a member of the Dragonslist. Telling me that Mr Glenn Wilson(Self Proclaimed GM of Pai Lum) has also released an instructional tape of the set. Though its not surprising its like his 40th tape.

Still I love the set. Though I dont agree with whoring it out to any T,D, or H. Partially because I know most often they are not going to "get it". And secondly because Whats the use of the 15 20 years the rest of us put into loveign and training in a style hubly and patiently just so that Joe Martial Artist around the corner can pick up our forms.

Now for the people with the understanding and ability to get it I say the tape is cool but still dont really agreee with Learning the hole thing from one. I think you should find a reputable teacher willing to teach you. Learn it and support that learing with the tape/DVD.

Thats Just my opinion, I could be wrong.
What the hell right, its just a form.

respectfully.

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#108667 - 03/28/05 03:05 PM Re: Kata Kin Ken (Golden Fist)
Anonymous
Unregistered


OOPS! This got posted twice!

[This message has been edited by underdog (edited 03-29-2005).]

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