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#108638 - 10/04/04 01:55 AM Re: Kata Kin Ken (Golden Fist)

Hapkido teaches PP from the beginning, they teach a broad base from the bottom up.

It doesn't have the same aura it does in karate.

It's just another part of the art.

I have about 8 years experience with PP's. From about 11 years of karate. I do not feel my striking or grappling suffered.

#108639 - 10/04/04 08:22 AM Re: Kata Kin Ken (Golden Fist)
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4065
Loc: Limbo
Like i said, you misunderstood what was being said. Not everyone suffers, there are a lot that have issues with retaining basics like stances and have timing issues. It's not only because of PP, it happens when anything the student perceives as “advanced” techniques or studies are introduced. Pressure points are introduced into hapkido in almost the same way as most karate schools. The karate schools that teach the use of PP will introduce them in the kyu levels like i said before but in-depth training doesn't happen till the student has a better understanding of the basics. The same is in hopkido, there are basic points taught early on but aren't gone into in detail till later. Hopkido doesn't venture into PP KOs like some forms of karate either. The majority of the pp techniques taught in hopkido are grappling and strikes to break down the defenses; they do go into much more detail in more advanced stages.

Pressure points are taught very early in hsing-i, from the beginning. It's very basic and isn't approached as a tool for ko like in some other systems. Yet again the more advanced you become in your other training the more advanced you become in PP. No one in his or her right mind will push you straight into PP with little other training. Ultimately it comes down to the student. If you have a 5th kyu that is obviously mature enough and is able to learn at a faster pace you can increase the frequency of his or her PP training. More than likely what you and I consider advance PP are two different things.

#108640 - 10/04/04 11:00 AM Re: Kata Kin Ken (Golden Fist)
kempocos Offline

Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 516
Loc: flemington,nj,usa
It is one thing to be told " HIT HERE IT IS POINT GB20 AND STRIKE IT LIKE THIS" and another thing to be able to apply the concepts during a fight and determine that a Kyusho strike has presented it self. This is why the information is given to higher ranks. They if they EARNED thier rank have the control and understanding to create and see the oppertunity of a Kyusho strike.
As for high priced seminars, I have found the more you pay for the person and the more marketing they do the LESS acurate thier information is. I have heard some stuff that was so wrong I almost laughed out loud and when discussed the theory presented had the person admit thier error.

There is no way around it, it takes hard work and time regardless of how talented YOU believe YOU are, others may see you skill level in differant way.

[This message has been edited by kempocos (edited 10-04-2004).]

#108641 - 10/05/04 04:01 AM Re: Kata Kin Ken (Golden Fist)

That said, I don't think we disagree on anything.

#108642 - 10/05/04 08:33 PM Re: Kata Kin Ken (Golden Fist)
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Daniel Pai was one of the early pioneers teaching the martial arts for big bucks. The Pai Lum (White Dragon) system that he taught was shared in the 60's-70's in the N.E. USA by Pai before he 'retired' to Hawaii his home, to surface in Florida just before his death years later.

Mr. Pai had taught Mr. Dillman, for example one of the competition forms Mr. Dillman used when he was know as a major kata competiror was Pai Lum Kuen. Its quite reasonable that Mr. Pai had taught more to Mr. Dillman, as Mr. Pai was teaching for big cash.

Not to mean this dispectfully, the Pai Lum system is interesting, comprised of Northern and Southern Shaolin technique. Those in Pai Lum are very 'clannish' about their system. My tai chi instructor also trained under Mr. Pai, and taught that system for many years before changing over to another of his studies.

I've sent him a question about Kin Ken, as to how Pai taught it within the Pai Lum group. From his Pai Lum instructors manual Golden Fist was 13th of 21 advanced forms he was teaching in those days.

Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu

#108643 - 10/12/04 07:29 PM Re: Kata Kin Ken (Golden Fist)
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Just a note on the research on Pai Lum's Golden Fist from my friend. BTW he was not familiar with the form under the Kin Ken term, but in Pai Lum it is most commonly know n as Golden Fist.

"Golden Fist is a form the Pai taught. I don't know how well hidden it was, but a lot of Pai Lum people knew it.

It's a form very similar to 1000 steps (note from me, another advanced Pai Lum form, one Cindy Rothrock often used for competition in the late 70's and early 80's).

It has a lot of inside forearm blocks, side kicks, and some moves from the horse like Bassai."

Just to give you some context about the form in discussion.

Hope this is helpful,

Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu

#108644 - 10/13/04 08:52 AM Re: Kata Kin Ken (Golden Fist)

Thank you Victor Smith. I checked PL web site and read history and looked at pictures. Another thing I learned in posting is how territorial people can be about knowledge. I can't imagine this discussion occuring so candidly on any other forum. I actually found this forum by chance! Thanks to everyone who has written on this topic. I definately got ideas about what makes the kata special and information about it and the politics of martial arts and tradition. Thanks to all.

#108645 - 10/13/04 05:10 PM Re: Kata Kin Ken (Golden Fist)
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH

It's just I happen to have lived in Penna. and trained with a number of knowledgeable instructors.

I trained under Ernest Rothrock for Tai Chi and various Kung Fu studies to be an honest judge. I never became a kung fu student, but learned a great deal. He taught the Pai Lum system for way over 25 years as he trained seriously in others systems such as Northern Eagle Claw. After about 25 years of work to learn the entire Eagle Claw system he then choose to switch his schools over to Eagle Claw, but he waited till he learnt all of it first. A different standard than many others take.

I recall one of his school instructors used to compete with Golden Fist, but after seeing so many different Chinese forms with him it doesn't stand out more than the others. In the Pai Lum curricula, it's just one of a series of advanced forms, not necessarily more or less than the others.

His conversion to Eagle Claw was because of his own various studies, it representing the highest level of training he was interested in, and he waited till he got it all before teaching it.

I'm sure the Golden Fist dvd will be interesting, but I'd always choose to train with a knowledgeable instructor, for a long time over any media version. Too much is lost without the personal contact.

Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu

#108646 - 10/14/04 12:20 AM Re: Kata Kin Ken (Golden Fist)

Thanks for the info Victor Smith. It's always good to see things from a different perspective.

Some may consider Niahanchi to be the heart of Karate, but to others it may be the first kata they learn and nothing more. Chotoku Kyan considered Gojushiho to hold the essence of Okinawan Karate, but I've seen it learned for no greater reason than to attain a brown belt.

Although some consider Mr. Dillman a money hungry misinformer, he never attempted to make any money by exploiting it. He could of years ago, but for what ever his reason he didn’t. Does that mean it holds a special place for me? No. I perform two katas twice a day, every day and Kin Ken is not one of them.

This leads me to something I have always said:
A kata is only as technical as the individual performing it, its meaning is only as deep as the individual is willing to search, and its importance is only as high as an individual holds it.

#108647 - 10/14/04 08:19 AM Re: Kata Kin Ken (Golden Fist)

Very true Kuma- I have seen the same katas placed all over the curriculum of different schools. How advanced they are depends on the student. I will go through intervals when I might be performing kata concentrating on just the energy movement and breathing- all the internal stuff and other times working on Bunkai. Then, other times, and I am not ashamed to admit it, I might be doing my kata knowingly just for the technical perfection of the strikes as drills for basics with or without weights. I might take short sections and do them with cable or elastic resistance. Rick Clark has a really cool book called 75 Down Blocks (I think that is the title). This is perfect for anyone who thinks their very first kata isn't advanced. It is a journey.

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