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#108628 - 10/02/04 03:42 PM Re: Kata Kin Ken (Golden Fist)
kempocos Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 516
Loc: flemington,nj,usa
KUMA - I agree, we are better off with the information. It needs to mentioned that PP training is something to be added to a style and NOT a style. I have seen many KYU get too coaught up in TCM concepts and do not refine thier technique enough to really use them. IMHO prior to shodan no more than 5% of training should be PP's, after that 10 to 20 % max. This how my instructors present it.

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#108629 - 10/02/04 06:01 PM Re: Kata Kin Ken (Golden Fist)
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by kempocos:
KUMA - I agree, we are better off with the information. It needs to mentioned that PP training is something to be added to a style and NOT a style. I have seen many KYU get too coaught up in TCM concepts and do not refine thier technique enough to really use them. IMHO prior to shodan no more than 5% of training should be PP's, after that 10 to 20 % max. This how my instructors present it. [/QUOTE]

You have a very wise instructor...

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#108630 - 10/02/04 07:47 PM Re: Kata Kin Ken (Golden Fist)
Anonymous
Unregistered


Bah. You should be taught everything properly as early as possible.

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#108631 - 10/02/04 11:39 PM Re: Kata Kin Ken (Golden Fist)
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Hill:
Bah. You should be taught everything properly as early as possible.[/QUOTE]

In order to teach pressure points properly the student needs to know the basics. Very few points should be taught to kyu levels because their understanding of the basics isn't as well established. kempocos and kuma are right, kyu level students involvement with PP should be limited. Many today are too eager to rush through the basics so they can learn "the cool stuff". The more PP are integrated into their daily training the less some of them will focus on their other training. What you end up with is someone who has little knowledge of timing, distance and other aspects needed when faced with a truly hostile situation.

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#108632 - 10/03/04 11:01 AM Re: Kata Kin Ken (Golden Fist)
Anonymous
Unregistered


I agree, in case this comment was directed towards me for maybe under representing myself. It was then, but not quite as true now in my school, that before a person could attend pressure point seminars, they had to be a black belt. There was some introduction of a limited number of points into the que ranks but limited. I did wait it out until I got to Shodan. KI didn't even start until after I reached Shodan. Absolutely, Kyusho is not a style but a tool to be added to a complete fighting style. If this is in fact what you are learning, then the pressure points aren't even that hard because when you revisit the bunkai you are already aware of and the canned self defense and kumite you memorized since white belt, you naturally see how pressure points were there all along waiting for you to acquire technical proficiency sufficient to exploit them.

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#108633 - 10/03/04 07:37 PM Re: Kata Kin Ken (Golden Fist)
Anonymous
Unregistered


I dont know if I agree with teaching Kyu less PP's because everyone is different. I have seen students that are naturally advanced in the martial arts that can easily add pressure points to their fighting. I think the higher ranked guys and girls dont like to teach this because the feel it gives them an advantage when they know the kyu will beat the p*** out of them. Besides every new person has trouble with kicks and punches too....that doesnt stop people from teaching that from the begining.

Most people in Martial Arts can't fight anyway...they want a hobby, that is fine, but just because some 35 year old lawyer- who can't do a good Kata or Sparr to save his life has money he makes the ranks and gets his PP's anyway...I know if you have been around long enough you have seen this.

It should be taught openly just like everything else. Maybe not the advanced levels No Touches, Sound projection and that but Instructors only want to give you bits and pieces so you get strung along for 3 years paying money. That is not right!

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#108634 - 10/03/04 08:25 PM Re: Kata Kin Ken (Golden Fist)
Anonymous
Unregistered


Oh come on. PP aren't that hard, but you need to be a Shodan. And your sensei will be incompetent and not train you enough in absics, kata, bunkai weapons or kumite if you learn PP?

What's so bad about teaching things properly as early as possible?

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#108635 - 10/03/04 09:10 PM Re: Kata Kin Ken (Golden Fist)
Anonymous
Unregistered


Amen Mark! Say it Again! You dont need to be a shodan...ITS JUST A BELT...It does not show your skill level! They want you to be a shodan so you will pay them for 4 years of training 70 x 12 x 4= $3,360 dollars(min) and they can string you along some more once you think the payoff is coming! 4 Years of training for them to say forget the cycles you dont need them! Hit these-they do this -now put this with that! Oh and dont hit those too hard!

If kyusho got taught like everything else, people wouldnt regard it as myth! You string someone along, they quit and you have a lot of people that know alittle and cant prove it works. Everyone else thinks its crap. Teach it right from the start. In JKD for instance- they know a headbutt works, they dont teach them 4 years later to headbutt, its one of the first things you learn...Granted if everyone knows Kyusho you cant charge a arm a leg for your seminars, lessons or videos.

You can look all up and down this PP forum and see the great masters say they wont discuss this and that...they just dont want you to learn unless you pay. Why even have a forum to discuss PP application if you arent going to share your information or answer a question.

[This message has been edited by Turbo (edited 10-03-2004).]

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#108636 - 10/04/04 01:23 AM Re: Kata Kin Ken (Golden Fist)
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
[QUOTE]PP aren't that hard[/QUOTE]

What experience do you have with PP?

[QUOTE]And your sensei will be incompetent and not train you enough in absics, kata, bunkai weapons or kumite if you learn PP?[/QUOTE]

No one said that. I said students tend to rush through the basics wanting to get to more advanced material.

[QUOTE]What's so bad about teaching things properly as early as possible?[/QUOTE]

In order for a student to "properly" learn PP they need a good understanding of the basics first. They will learn the application of PP faster and have a better understanding of them if you wait. No one ever said you had to wait till shodan to start either, they just shouldn't be covered as in-depth till then. It also depends on the student.

[QUOTE]You dont need to be a shodan...ITS JUST A BELT...It does not show your skill level![/QUOTE]

Yes it is just a belt, but any good instructor will not promote a shodan unless they are at that skill level.

[QUOTE]They want you to be a shodan so you will pay them for 4 years of training 70 x 12 x 4= $3,360 dollars(min) and they can string you along some more once you think the payoff is coming![/QUOTE]

That may have been how it was with you but i avoid places like that at all cost.

[QUOTE]4 Years of training for them to say forget the cycles you dont need them! Hit these-they do this -now put this with that! Oh and dont hit those too hard![/QUOTE]

You don't have much experience with PP do you. If you don't have a good understanding of body mechanics, timing, distance and rhythm PP aren't going to do anything for you. Which is why YOU NEED THE BASICS FIRST.

[QUOTE]If kyusho got taught like everything else, people wouldnt regard it as myth![/QUOTE]

The largest myth about PP is that once you learn them you can throw everything out the window. Why promote a stupid myth?

[QUOTE]In JKD for instance- they know a headbutt works, they dont teach them 4 years later to headbutt, its one of the first things you learn[/QUOTE]

A headbutt is a far cry from PP. Your reaching.

[QUOTE]Granted if everyone knows Kyusho you cant charge a arm a leg for your seminars, lessons or videos.[/QUOTE]

I've never paid anything for PP training. I have paid for any training in almost 10 years. You don't know what you’re talking about. Granted there are some who do charge a lot for these services, but there are also those from ANY system that does the same.

[QUOTE]You can look all up and down this PP forum and see the great masters say they wont discuss this and that...they just dont want you to learn unless you pay.[/QUOTE]

Wrong again. Most here aren't going to give some kid pointers on PP with out knowing what kind of training they have had. Pressure points can be very dangerous and like most other forms of training should only be done under the supervision of a legitimate instructor.

[QUOTE]Why even have a forum to discuss PP application if you arent going to share your information or answer a question.[/QUOTE]

You need to read a bit further. There has been some very good information exchange here.

Pressure points are not beginners training. They can be touched on from time to time to give the students an idea of why some thing is done a certain way but not focused on like in an advanced class. If your in a system that says "there are no blocks, everything is a strike" then you can point out some instances of why and how they are strikes. In every system of fighting there is a natural progression of technique. Everything has a different depth to it. You have to teach in the proper progression in order to produce the proper out come. Like i said before, you can teach some pressure points in the early stages of training but training in depth shouldn't happen till after the student has a firm grasp of the basics. I only use shodan as an example, i was first introduced to PP as an 8th kyu. Mostly arm points were covered but others were thrown into the mix from time to time. You obviously have misunderstood or have no concept of PP. Not everyone is only out for money.

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#108637 - 10/04/04 01:39 AM Re: Kata Kin Ken (Golden Fist)
Anonymous
Unregistered


I've got nothing against people selling their knowledge or expertise. Martial arts is merely another trade, like plumbing or actuarial studies.

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