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#108618 - 09/28/04 03:05 PM Kata Kin Ken (Golden Fist)

My teacher's teacher learned Kin Ken Kata from George Dillman. It is a very advanced kata. I don't know many Dillman folks because my school is a Kyusho International School (Evan Pantazi). I know there are DKI folks on this forum, it seems to be impressively broad based. I'm kind of excited about having ordered Master Pantazi's DVD on the matter that he is doing with a whole cast of the best known KI instructors. It will be a very long time before the DVD is released. Could maybe some of the more advanced DKI folks out there tell me something more about this kata? I kind of want to know everything that makes it unique and maybe what you like best about it.

#108619 - 09/29/04 03:59 AM Re: Kata Kin Ken (Golden Fist)

I spent several years in the DKI earning my 2nd, 3rd and 4th degree black belts in that organization. I still keep in touch with several of the DKI instructors throughout the Midwest where I used to train.

This kata was taught to Mr. Dillman by Daniel K. Pai, and is said to be a high level kata from China. Jim Corn, Evan Pantazi, Mark Kline, and Gary Rooks were all students of Mr. Dillman or members of the DKI at one time. The only one of the 4 I have ever really trained with for any length of time was Mark Kline, and found him to be extremely knowledgeable.

I learned the kata a few years ago. The thing is: is that this kata is only supposed to be passed down from teacher to student first hand or by word of mouth. Not by videotape or book. At least that is how it was explained to me. That is why you generally will not find much info on it. So that in mind, it pains me to see someone making money off it, but itís not surprising.

$159 Pre-sale price. (Retail price after the product is released will be $199 and special discount for KI Members) Of course the membership cost you $30.00 a year.

Damn! $159.00 for a video? You gotta be freaking kidding me. LOL!

#108620 - 09/29/04 09:04 AM Re: Kata Kin Ken (Golden Fist)

OK then, when I see Master Dillman next month in Ontario, along with remembering not to wear a K.I. patch, I'll remember not to tell him about the DVD.

#108621 - 09/29/04 09:35 AM Re: Kata Kin Ken (Golden Fist)

Iím not sure why you would go to that extreme, and Iím sure Mr. Dillman already knows. Especially since Will Higginbotham sells his videos on the KI web sight and he is currently DKI.

Plus, Iím sure at one time all kata were passed on that way. Eventually someone always cashes in.

#108622 - 09/29/04 01:58 PM Re: Kata Kin Ken (Golden Fist)

OK. Maybe I was wrong.

I spent the morning contacting 4 DKI instructors I know and keep in touch with, and so far it was the first that they had heard of it.

So if Mr. Dillman didn't know, I'm sure he will by this evening.

#108623 - 10/01/04 11:37 AM Re: Kata Kin Ken (Golden Fist)
kempocos Offline

Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 516
Loc: flemington,nj,usa
Have you tried anyone from PAI LUM KUNG FU since the kata is from that system?

I don't think that Mr Dillman can say anything about KI making the video/DVD. They are doing exactly what he did after taking some seminars from Taikia Oyata. Producing media to teach everyone what was once reserved for High Ranking dedicated student.

#108624 - 10/01/04 12:20 PM Re: Kata Kin Ken (Golden Fist)

Yes actually, thank you. I found the web site the first day I was looking for it and there is a lot of info. More is being posted too on the web site. Thank you also for the reminder of how much controversy Master Dillman has generated. He reminds people in his videos but, I wouldn't have known what that actually meant so many years ago. I take my PP study for granted. I have probably pretty near all of Master Dillman's books and videos, and many others from Will Higginbotham, David Rhodes, Steve Stewart, Kim Dillman, Mark Kline, Evan Pantazi, and many others from closely related or useful styles. When the masters bring their material forward this way, it is the only way that I would ever have access. I go to conferences but when I go, I often have no uke because no one wants to train with an old lady. I was 54 when I got my belt I'm 56 now and I am female. Personally I don't believe that being male healthy strong and in the 30s to 40s age range after maybe 3 decades of study is the only criteria for deciding who is worthy. I ordered the DVD. I have confidence in Master Pantazi and the others. My journey is very different. I just try to find the best learning opportunities I can for myself. Often that is outside of my school and that is OK. The price of the video may seem high to someone who was qualified to learn privately from Master Dillman. I will never have that opportunity. How much do the Dillman Black Belts pay in training fees to learn this material from him personally? Don't tell me. It was a rhetorical question the answer for which is not my business. The point is that this is the best learning opportunity I have. I will gladly travel to your school's seminar, to the extent that I can afford, to take advantage of whatever appropriate learning opportunities you can offer me and other atypical learners. I can't bench 135 pounds anymore but I used to. I can't do a jump spinning hook kick anymore, but I could. I still have the will to make the journey and I am not ready to retire from the martial arts quite yet. I would say that for at least some of the upcoming best, that if they had as difficult a journey as mine is sometimes, they would not have continued. Many would, of course, but they might grant that encouragement and and easier skill acquisition from an early age contribute to their success. Imagine training without that in an environment that finds you odd. I'm sorry for preaching. Maybe we need a forum for us lesser humans so that we can uphold and uplift one another in the quest that we only dream about winning. Bu the way, if you see an atypical learner at a seminar who is without an uke, please consider offering the opportunity to work in with you as a third. It means a lot. Take it from one who is last chosen, the underdog.

#108625 - 10/01/04 01:01 PM Re: Kata Kin Ken (Golden Fist)
kempocos Offline

Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 516
Loc: flemington,nj,usa
The reason it was taught to high ranking select students was because of the great skill it takes to really use this information. Many of the techniques shown in seminars will never work in real life for the majority. The differnace between a training partner and a real life situation is great. The subject of body alarm reaction and related issues come into play.
As in any subject there are opinions on who has the best knowledge, IMHO Oyatas RYU TE system is the best for this information.
Many are being started down the PP path too soon and do not have the skill to use a kyusho strike.

[This message has been edited by kempocos (edited 10-01-2004).]

#108626 - 10/01/04 10:17 PM Re: Kata Kin Ken (Golden Fist)

Kempocos you are 100% correct.

It is an endless cycle:
-Mr. Oyata was forced to leave Mr. Nakamuraís Okinawa Kenpo Renmei after visiting the US in 1968 for reportedly for showing techniques he was asked not to.

-Mr. Dillman puts out books and videos with subject matter that he was advised not to.

-Mr. Pantazi puts out a DVD with a kata and bunkai that he was asked not to.

-Was Mr. Nakamura upset about what Oyata did?

-Was Mr. Oyata upset about what Dillman did?

-Will Mr.Dillman be upset at what Pantazi
Only time will tell, but I'm sure we know the answer.

Are we better off for people who have gone against the main stream, or not?
I would say yes.

#108627 - 10/02/04 07:20 AM Re: Kata Kin Ken (Golden Fist)

Kuma, your reply is simply and well stated. I would agree. Of importance too is the objective one has in studying martial arts. The times have changed. The appearance of the students have changed. I will never be an elite martial artist, but I actually use my martial arts in live situations in addition to the domain of dojo reality. My expectation is that the DVD WILL meet some of my realistic and more modest objectives. Obviously in the thinking and knowledge domain, I will benefit. Don't rule out that my net fighting efficasy might also benefit because I don't. I thank everyone who has brought martial arts forward. I thank them as if they were doing it just for me personally. They have given me a great gift that changes my work-outs, my healing, and the way I look at a lot of things.

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