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#108542 - 07/10/04 05:04 PM Omigod there's a WHOLE FORUM DEDICATED TO PRESSURE POINTS!!!!!!!!!
Anonymous
Unregistered


I guess my question is simply, why do we never see meridian pressure point attacks in MMA/NHB fights???? Where's the death touch in modern day combat???? Could not your opponent in a Vale Tudo fight have his chi-flow messed with, or does it only work for some reason in a self-defence scenario (or behind closed 'dojo' doors with your instructor)???
I'm trying very hard to be respectful, but please let me know what the deal is with this secret fighting style thati've never seen used by people who make their living TRAINING TO WIN ACTUAL FIGHTS???????

Thank you and if I seem niave to Dim Mak and whatnot, believe me, I am.

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#108543 - 07/12/04 09:25 AM Re: Omigod there's a WHOLE FORUM DEDICATED TO PRESSURE POINTS!!!!!!!!!
Ice Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/26/04
Posts: 19
Loc: Slovenia, Europe
Hey Heelhooker,

first of all, there have been many pressure points KO's in UFC, Vale tudo and PRIDE tournaments, whether the guys who did it knew pressure points or not. In most cases it was a hook punch to ST5 on the side of the jaw...

But i see your point. Too many people are concentrating way too much on pressure points then on effective fighting strategies. If you only study pressure points, their angle and direction you are destined to sit on the floor first few seconds of a fight.
The pressure points were considered an Okuden level of understanding martial arts. In my opinion this wasn't just to hide the information but also because someone who didnít posses reflexive, self preservation fighting skills, like kicking the groin, eye gouge or simple punch to the face had no use in knowing the pressure points since for him they would be almost impossible to hit... Once someone is comfortable with these ''natural'' techniques and practices them regularly, a kick to the groin can become a kick to SP10,11, hook punch can easily land to ST5, TW17 and a low kick (gedan mawashi) can land to GB31... this can go to any other fighting strategies or techniques.
But without possessing basing fighting strategies, without practicing reality based sparring, pressure points are of no use. Pressure points can make techniques amazingly more effective but they are useless by them selves. What use do you get if you know their correct angle and direction when you miss combat strategies and mentality to attack them?

I use pressure points mostly in grappling and trapping. I think these are the most effective distances for pressure points strikes. Pak sao is a slap to LI10 and punch to ST5, TW17, Lop sao is grabbing the wrist points or LU5 and punch to ST5, TW17,Ö.. Once you are comfortable with basic moves its very easy to add pressure points to them.
But anything you do has to be effective with or without pressure points. Pressure points just make it more effective. I believe this is the way it was originally taught.

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#108544 - 07/12/04 10:33 AM Re: Omigod there's a WHOLE FORUM DEDICATED TO PRESSURE POINTS!!!!!!!!!
kempocos Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 516
Loc: flemington,nj,usa
ICE , said most of my comment. PP should be part of your training not all of it. Many folks see it a a style of its own when it is advanced knowleged of why we perfect technique. MMA/NHB fighters train submission techniques that take advantage of PP if thier trainers know it or not. EX:arm bar- grab the wrist, using Large Intestine / lung / Triple/ Heart Meridians then apply pressure to Triple Warmer 11 (Golgi Tendion/nerver cluster) back of arm just above the elbow.

The mis statement of " SECRET " Martial Arts is something that those who never trained long eneough in a style to be considered advanced uses to explain why they were not taught these techniques.

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#108545 - 07/12/04 02:32 PM Re: Omigod there's a WHOLE FORUM DEDICATED TO PRESSURE POINTS!!!!!!!!!
Anonymous
Unregistered


Seriously, thanks guys, certainly interesting....

I guess the big difference sometimes is simple terminology, for instance when I hit someone in the head and it lands on the jaw and happens to knock him out, I would think of it in terms of the jaw (as any boxer knows) is the bitton that increases the K.O. potential because being an obvious leverage point will most likely cause the skull to move more explosively and cause the brain to impact with the skull and damage it...causing knockout). Also I know that the jaw can compress backwards and pressure nerves below the ears, two of the few pressure points I use while grappling to open up a choke, and even then only rarely as I know from experience that you can shove your thumb as hard as you can into these spots and some people just won't respond to the pain (I'm one of them).
I guess I've always chosen to use common sense and embrace the western boxing explanation for knockouts, since let's face it.....the boxers and kickboxers have by far clocked the most knockouts to date.

I just feel pressure point fighting is unproven, unreliable, and unrealistic and the lack of their intended application by PROFESSIONAL FIGHTERS TRAINING AT ALL COSTS TO WIN FIGHTS proves it.

By the way, the reason to grab the wrist during a straight-armlock is simply to increase leverage by grabbing the furthest point of the arm from the fulcrum without grabbing the hand, which is too "bendy" and unreliable. Also to turn the thmumb towards the ceiling to increase the effectiveness of the lock. You apply pressure by raising your hips to the back of the elbow to BREAK THE ARM AND TEAR THE BICEP MUSCLE!!!!! IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SOME SORT OF MERIDIAN POINT OR ANY OTHER PRESSURE POINT!!!!!
If you want effective submissions, think leverage instead of focusing on some nerve juncture or pressure point. This is what has been proven effective.

finally, where is the "DEATH TOUCH" in modern times????????WHERE?????!?!!?!?!!?!!?

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#108546 - 07/12/04 02:43 PM Re: Omigod there's a WHOLE FORUM DEDICATED TO PRESSURE POINTS!!!!!!!!!
the504mikey Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/19/03
Posts: 790
Loc: Louisiana, United States
TJ,

You make some good points. All the more reason to give the PP and Death Touch "True Believers (tm)" their own forum where they can discuss esoterica like Chi cycle timing without it spilling into the other, more self-defense focused forums (where it will invariably start a flame war). This is, after all, a martial arts forum, not a self defense forum. We all (should) know that much of martial arts has absolutely zero to do with self defense.

That said, you probably aren't going to be able to convince any of the people who have decided to dedicate time and energy to learning these things that it was a waste of time, so popping into "their" forums and attempting to do so will eventually come to be viewed as trolling.

It is, (in my humble and non-moderating opinion) completely appropriate for you to put the smackdown on these things when they pop up in the Self Defense forum or even the general Martial Arts Talk forum if you wish, but to come into their house, so to speak, and do the same thing is inappropriate. After all, some people study these things simply because they are interesting in their own right, without any regards to applicability. It's not anyone's place to come here looking to "beat some sense into them" whether through logical discourse or contact.

At any rate, I really have enjoyed reading some of what you have written, so I thought I'd offer my two cents on this before the mods pounce on you-- based on the trolling problems we have been having I expect (and hope for) a serious crack down soon. I would hate for you to get caught in the cross fire.

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]



[This message has been edited by the504mikey (edited 07-12-2004).]

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#108547 - 07/12/04 03:17 PM Re: Omigod there's a WHOLE FORUM DEDICATED TO PRESSURE POINTS!!!!!!!!!
Kempoman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
TJ,

You bring up a valid point-of-view. However, I think that when you are saying "TRAINING TO WIN ACTUAL FIGHTS!!!!" you really mean

"TRAINING TO WIN A SPORT FIGHTING EVENT!!!!!"

The two are uniquely different. I have used the points in an actual fight, but they were on the end of a very general(shotgun) technique.

I can tell you which point
s) caused the KO's, but at the time I was just executing. That is the way these things are used in a real situation.

You never think ahead of time "Hey, I'm going to mack this sucker right on TW-11!!!!!"

Train to hit them and you will.

Scott

P.S.

I guess we can all quit training because we don't train to win actual-real-honest-to-goodness-really-really-real fights.

Good grief.

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#108548 - 07/12/04 03:49 PM Re: Omigod there's a WHOLE FORUM DEDICATED TO PRESSURE POINTS!!!!!!!!!
kempocos Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 516
Loc: flemington,nj,usa
TJ - "By the way, the reason to grab the wrist during a straight-armlock is simply to increase leverage by grabbing the furthest point of the arm from the fulcrum without grabbing the hand, which is too "bendy" and unreliable. Also to turn the thmumb towards the ceiling to increase the effectiveness of the lock. You apply pressure by raising your hips to the back of the elbow to BREAK THE ARM AND TEAR THE BICEP MUSCLE!!!!! IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SOME SORT OF MERIDIAN POINT OR ANY OTHER PRESSURE POINT!!!!!
If you want effective submissions, think leverage instead of focusing on some nerve juncture or pressure point. This is what has been proven effective."

And how does this make my explantaion wrong. You turn the thumb up to postion the arm correctly to cause the proper stress. Many folks try to make PP out to be something they are not. If you use TCM terms you are just speaking in the same context the creators of the arts in Asia used when defining the move. They are a map of the body to show how to damage/heal it. The reason most sytles do not study PP until above Black Belt is they are the why behind the techniques. If a person cannot move , create openings, target thier strikes then PP knowledge will not help. If you do some research you will find western medical reasons for the PP techniques to work. I AM NOT TALKING LIGHT TOUCH KO , I am talking TUITE( GRAPPLING) and KYUSHO(pp striking) with targeting larger areas not dime size taps, pokes, rubs.

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#108549 - 07/12/04 05:50 PM Re: Omigod there's a WHOLE FORUM DEDICATED TO PRESSURE POINTS!!!!!!!!!
Anonymous
Unregistered


Points well taken. You see, I'm not only a newbie here, I'm a newbie to COMPUTERS in general! (opening for you all to make fun...).

I for many recent years owned and managed a fight and self-defence and many MMA/NHB competitors and trainees made up our student base. I have worked in Nightclub Security for years and have been in and around "REAL" fight situations many times. Not to mention that I myself believe when soneone is out of line and is also WILLING, it's morally O.K. to get physical and fight. I guess I have yet to see anything that reflects "REAL" fighting like MMA/NHB events.
Of course there are differences (especially with more and more rules being added), but there are far more similarities. I would love to hear of something else that more accurately reflects a real fight (remember, self defence situations become fights real quick!) better than the ever-evolving labrotory of MMA.

The last thing I want to do is be a troll (I was wondering what that term meant....now I know), so I will chill on the debate material. However, I love to have my firmest beliefs challenged so if you ever want to debate me....please do.

No hard feelings and thanks for having me.

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#108550 - 07/12/04 10:38 PM Re: Omigod there's a WHOLE FORUM DEDICATED TO PRESSURE POINTS!!!!!!!!!
kempocos Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 516
Loc: flemington,nj,usa
TJ - glad to have you because unless we are forced to confirm the concepts errors will happen, and that can get you hurt. One of the main points is that the seminars and books that are the center of debate are think sessions to show how the concepts work, then you take those to the mat and work them into something that you can use.

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#108551 - 07/13/04 08:28 AM Re: Omigod there's a WHOLE FORUM DEDICATED TO PRESSURE POINTS!!!!!!!!!
Ice Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/26/04
Posts: 19
Loc: Slovenia, Europe
TJ,

kyusho jitsu teaches you theory behind pressure points strikes. This is a very high level martial arts theory, consisted of meridian flow, cycle of creation, destruction, diurnal flow,Ö But when you are in a real fight, you can not think of what you will do. You do it instinctively and without any thinking. But during your practice you study the theory to make your techniques as effective as possible. And yes, in many cases you can explain eastern philosophy with western knowledge and understanding of human body.

Kyusho jitsu is a theory behind pressure points fighting just like a triangle point theory is a theory behind biomechanical control of opponent used in Silat or Kali. In real fight, you don't think where the triangular point of your opponent is and i have trained many top Judo players that never knew the point existed. After explaining it to them, they were able to execute techniques much easier and without even thinking of the theory behind it. Same goes for pressure point fighting. You don't have to know all the theory behind it. For most people it's enough just to know to strike here and strike there. They don't need to know all the theory to make it work. But this is a forum of mostly serious instructors, that teach other people and they need to understand as much as they can behind what they teach.

I was also working as a bouncer in night clubs for 4 years. Pressure points helped me a lot to control people high on drugs or alcohol. This saved me from a lot of lawsuits that happened to other bouncers. They are great to be used on VIP's that get to drunk and sometimes aggressive and you can't punch them. It worked amazingly for me, though again, had i only studied pressure points they would be useless. Sometimes, when there was a big fight, we had to use everything we had to put the situation under control...

I have presented the material to my countries elite police and military units and they loved it. There were many cocky Special Forces guys that resisted as hard as they could but failed. In case the subject wasn't so susceptible to PP i'd go for a hair pull, ear smash, groin slap...sometimes you have to combine pressure points with vital points.
My countries department for protecting the president and VIP politicians as well as foreign representatives visiting our country is now putting a lot of effort to learn pressure points. These people have to work invisible and they can't do any flashy techniques when subduing a person. They also can't be brutal, since the media are always watching. They find pressure points as perfect techniques for their line of work. But of course, pressure points have their weaknesses and a person using them has to posses a whole arsenal of methods to defend a VIP as well as himself, starting from self-preservation all the way to self perfection.

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