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#108424 - 03/14/04 08:40 AM Are the 5 elements real?
dirdmister Offline
Member

Registered: 03/11/04
Posts: 39
I know the 5 elements are : fire, earth, metal, water and wood;
but does this actually mean?
How do you do a fire attack etc?
what makes the attacks different?
where on the body do you use these attacks?
what affects can they have?
what are the most dangerous?

Can somebody please answer my questions

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#108425 - 03/14/04 01:15 PM Re: Are the 5 elements real?
kempocos Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 516
Loc: flemington,nj,usa
[QUOTE]Originally posted by dirdmister:
I know the 5 elements are : fire, earth, metal, water and wood;
but does this actually mean?

>They are phases of power accorcing to TCM, not elemnets as we now them.

How do you do a fire attack etc?
>Strike or grab anlong a meidran the is of the fire element, striking the top of the bicpep which is LUNG 3, this would be a FIRE attack

what makes the attacks different?
>nothing it is just a way to plan a combination of strikes/grabs

where on the body do you use these attacks?
>Depends on attack and desired response.

what affects can they have?
>Following the theory, increased pain.

what are the most dangerous?
>Take a class

Can somebody please answer my questions
[/QUOTE]

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#108426 - 03/15/04 11:55 AM Re: Are the 5 elements real?
dirdmister Offline
Member

Registered: 03/11/04
Posts: 39
Thank for replying. Take a class in what(bear in mind i live in the UK) ?

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#108427 - 03/15/04 02:52 PM Re: Are the 5 elements real?
Kempoman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
Wher in the UK? I can recommend some high level people over there.

Scott

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#108428 - 03/16/04 11:36 AM Re: Are the 5 elements real?
dirdmister Offline
Member

Registered: 03/11/04
Posts: 39
I live in a small town called Wednesbury near Walsall. Do you know where that is?

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#108429 - 04/07/04 07:36 AM Re: Are the 5 elements real?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I don't know the exact details as yet, but I believe that 'KYUSHO INTERNATIONAL' is in the process of opening up in the UK. For more information as to who and where email evan@kyusho.com or check the KI website. www.kyusho.com

--Dave

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#108430 - 04/07/04 08:01 AM Re: Are the 5 elements real?
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dave Cobb:
I don't know the exact details as yet, but I believe that 'KYUSHO INTERNATIONAL' is in the process of opening up in the UK. For more information as to who and where email evan@kyusho.com or check the KI website. www.kyusho.com

--Dave
[/QUOTE]

Yet more people jumping on the bandwagon.

I checked the Kyusho International site, great video.

They showed a guy being knocked out who had to be caught by two people. Unfortunately while the guy is meant to be half out cold, he manages to pull one of his legs under him with no help, showing perfect control and co-ordination of his limb.

And another one bites the dust [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

JohnL

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#108431 - 04/07/04 08:35 AM Re: Are the 5 elements real?
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JohnL:
Yet more people jumping on the bandwagon.

I checked the Kyusho International site, great video.

They showed a guy being knocked out who had to be caught by two people. Unfortunately while the guy is meant to be half out cold, he manages to pull one of his legs under him with no help, showing perfect control and co-ordination of his limb.

And another one bites the dust [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

JohnL
[/QUOTE]

Hmmm...Sounds like a George Dillman seminar? I saw a few of his KO techniques from a video someone gave me and it look kind of phony?

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#108432 - 04/07/04 09:39 AM Re: Are the 5 elements real?
kempocos Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 516
Loc: flemington,nj,usa
Kyusho International are from the Dillman side of Kyusho. I know Mark Kline who was a 7th dan and one of Dillmans top men left DKI to align himself with KYUSHO INTERNATIONAL just a few months ago.

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#108433 - 04/08/04 06:43 PM Re: Are the 5 elements real?
alan shindsharonjr Offline
Member

Registered: 03/11/04
Posts: 54
Loc: beachwood.ohio USA
The 5 elements ,the meridians, pressure points,ying ,yang ect are the foundations that martial arts going back to Chinese Boxing or early yang Family Taijiquan . it is also the basics of Okinawan Karate through the BUBISHI. English translated version by Partrick McCarthy.

There is no need to explain this as there are many well researched books and articles on the market under Dim Mak , pressure points ect. However you must except this as the foundation of Karate or you will never reach a high level of expertise.


I would like to comment on the people who do not understand a pressure point knock out.
Master Dillman has always said that it does not have to be a complete faint.
A stong stager that renders your opponent helpless and unable to fight back for a few seconds is all the results you need from that strike.
After all in a real fight you will be able to kill a opponent if he is unable to respond for a few seconds.

I would suggest you allow yourself to be struck at a Dillman seminar if you have any doubts as to the effects.

Again its not trying to win a discussion of style but rather to have you understand that this subject is fundamental to Classic Martial Arts

Thanks
Alan

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#108434 - 04/09/04 08:51 AM Re: Are the 5 elements real?
kempocos Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 516
Loc: flemington,nj,usa
I have been struck in this manner by DILLMAN, OYATA (When I trained in his linage)and MONEYMAKER. I think it is the NO TOUCH and the fact that the seminars are only stories and instant knockouts that cause the Dillman comments. I did not here anything about the effects of Body Alarm Reaction on the effectivness of these srikes. The Dillman seminar I attended did not address realistic combat situstions. People just stood there and were tapped and rubbed.

For those just learning this path explainations are helpful, and to know that this is not Dillmans creation, and there are other appraochs to the concepts.

In regards to the BUBISHI, I just read a great book. The author took the information on vital points and has done the medical research. The Body Alarm Reactions information is worth the money.

here is info on it. www.combatkyusho.com

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#108435 - 04/09/04 08:34 PM Re: Are the 5 elements real?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by JohnL:
Yet more people jumping on the bandwagon.

I checked the Kyusho International site, great video.

They showed a guy being knocked out who had to be caught by two people. Unfortunately while the guy is meant to be half out cold, he manages to pull one of his legs under him with no help, showing perfect control and co-ordination of his limb.

And another one bites the dust [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

JohnL
[/QUOTE]

It isn't always about the out cold sleeping like a log KO. There are different levels of KO starting from the rolling of the eyes. Making the legs all wobbly like the boxing when they can't stand straight. Various other levels up to and including full KO.
Half a seconds grace is all you need to take advantage of your opponent and win the fight.
--Dave

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#108436 - 04/09/04 08:38 PM Re: Are the 5 elements real?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by kempocos:
Kyusho International are from the Dillman side of Kyusho. I know Mark Kline who was a 7th dan and one of Dillmans top men left DKI to align himself with KYUSHO INTERNATIONAL just a few months ago.[/QUOTE]

Yes, Mark is one of the new 'Developers' in KI.
KI is an organisation developed by Evan Pantazi Shihan. Also a 7th under Mr. Dillman.


--Dave

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#108437 - 04/09/04 08:41 PM Re: Are the 5 elements real?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by kempocos:
I have been struck in this manner by DILLMAN, OYATA (When I trained in his linage)and MONEYMAKER. I think it is the NO TOUCH and the fact that the seminars are only stories and instant knockouts that cause the Dillman comments. I did not here anything about the effects of Body Alarm Reaction on the effectivness of these srikes. The Dillman seminar I attended did not address realistic combat situstions. People just stood there and were tapped and rubbed.

For those just learning this path explainations are helpful, and to know that this is not Dillmans creation, and there are other appraochs to the concepts.

In regards to the BUBISHI, I just read a great book. The author took the information on vital points and has done the medical research. The Body Alarm Reactions information is worth the money.

here is info on it. www.combatkyusho.com
[/QUOTE]

One of the precepts that makes Kyusho International different, is that from day one, your target is on the move. The idea of striking a standstill target is the exception, not the rule.

--Dave

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#108438 - 04/12/04 02:10 PM Re: Are the 5 elements real?
kempocos Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 516
Loc: flemington,nj,usa
Dave
sounds like KI is taking all the knowledge DKI amassed and applying it in a combat rather than theory manner. I will have to keep an eye out for one of the seminars.

Thanks for the info!!!!

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#108439 - 04/18/04 10:21 PM Re: Are the 5 elements real?
Ice Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/26/04
Posts: 19
Loc: Slovenia, Europe
I believe many people have misinterpreted GM Dillmans philosophy on martial arts and the use of pressure points.

Most believe, that Ryukyu Kempo and Kyusho jitsu are the stuff he teaches at the seminars and the KO's and energy projection demos he and he's students perform at the end of them.
The way he teaches these seminars is to teach you on how to insert pressure points into your own system and not as if pressure points were a martial art system by themselves.
So if you use punches, kicks, sparring, grappling, trapping and ground fighting , he teaches you on how to insert kyusho into your own system making it more effective. He is not trying to tell you what is the correct way to fight or interfere with your martial arts system, he just teaches you how to make it more effective without having to change it.
For example, if you are doing Muai Thai low kicks, why not trying to hit GB31 or ST32? Or when punching, why not trying to hit ST5 or GB24,LIV14? Why not combining LI7 and ST5 doing pak sao? Is this hard to do? Yes it is. Is it effective? Yes it is. Will it work? If the kick, punch or trap will work, so will the pressure points.

Many people have neglected other aspects of his teachings and the importance of other masters that are teaching with him and have influenced him. GM Dillman joined forces with prof. Wally Jay and Remy Presas, trying to find most effective combat methods for real life fighting. Especially Modern Arnis or Philippines arts contain many very effective combat strategies. Even most of todayís ''reality based'' systems like JKD, PFS, CFA and even Haganah ... are using them. Dillman was also trying to make his art, Ryukyu Kempo, as effective as it can be. Those arts allowed him to understand his art better and making it more effective. He said it many times and even in his books, that karate was meant to work in real life. But most of the people attending his seminars neglected this side of his teaching and became hooked to the knock outs, energy projections, ....

Many people are also trying to become overnight what took GM Dillman 40 years to become. He was a pro boxer, top karate competitor, he sparred with Muhammad Ali and Bruce Lee. He has had a lot of fighting experience and pressure points came very natural to him to enhance his fighting abilities.
But most martial artists should first work on their basics and other strategies of martial arts, before trying to fight with the use of pressure points, which is the highest (okuden) level in fighting and applying the techniques.

Teaching kyusho to a total beginner is in my oppinion like teaching him on how to get his ass kicked. You can add some simple pressure points to basic tuite techniques or even punching or kicking but unless he can kick the opponent to the groin, punch him to the face or take him down with a simple Osoto gari, he will never be able to hit SP11, ST5 or ST9,...
This again shows GM philosophy on martial arts and why his style is called Ryukyu Kempo and not Kyusho jitsu.
Pressure points by themselves are useless. You have to have a system to incorporate them to it. GM Dillman always emphasized this. This is why he never wanted to certify anyone in Kyusho jitsu only, but in Ryukyu Kempo, which is a complete art, and also includes most important and effective aspects of SSJJ and Modern Arnis. Most of the people never realised this aspect of his philosophy.

The only reason pressure points wonít work for you in real life is when the style you are practicing is lacking effective combat strategies to defeat your opponent or if you don't understand it corectlly. If you are using the right methods, the pressure points will come very natural to enhance your techniques which should be effective even without them.

I hope more people will realize this but it's their loss if they won't.

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#108440 - 04/19/04 11:28 AM Re: Are the 5 elements real?
kempocos Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 516
Loc: flemington,nj,usa
ICE, Many view RYUKYU KEMPO only as DKI teachs it when from all reports Dillman trained in RYUKYU KEMPO under Oyata 1 to 1/12 years at seminars. I think the comments here were to point out to those new to KYUSHO, TUITE, TOUDI that there are other concepts in application to be found. I agree you should be ranked brown or above before starting this training.

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#108441 - 04/19/04 01:13 PM Re: Are the 5 elements real?
Ice Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/26/04
Posts: 19
Loc: Slovenia, Europe
Yes, Dillman studied under Oyata and is proud of that. He also studied with many other people like Harry Smith, Hohan Soken, Robert Trias, Danny Pie, Bruce Lee, Wally Jay, Remy Presas,... He also did a lot of medical research on his own, to understand human body better...

His research has brought him a long way, he got many dedicated followers and became very successful. Any time, he could have found a new martial art, naming it whatever but he didn't. As he states in his book Advanced Pressure Points Grappling, page 21:'' Master Oyata was a very important teacher of George Dillman ... Though Dillman has had many teachers whose influences appears in what he teaches, he has continued to use the name Ryukyu Kempo as a sign of respect.'' He only added the term Dillman method to the name.

Oyata's Ryukyu Kempo is what Dillman method is based upon. But because of other influences and research, GM Dillman has gone his own way, always keeping respect to the man who taught most important basics to him. I highly respect him for doing so.

I don't understand why so many people on this forum are putting down his expertise and teachings? Does he teach the correct Tuite? As long as it is effective, i donít care. And it is effective!!! It is based on Oyata's teachings and principles of Small Circle Jujitsu and Modern Arnis. All of these arts are very effective if you keep the right perspective. I' ve been a bouncer for 4 years, have taught members of the special police and military forces as well as top bodyguards. They have all done all kinds of martial arts before, have had lots of combat experience and were very suspicious about it, but no one could ever doubt its effectiveness.

Kyusho and Tuite are particularly appropriate for bodyguards. Today most people have UFC or PRIDE tournaments or some of their personal ideas about a street fight in mind when thinking about what is effective. But we have to understand, that the way a police officer or a professional bodyguard engages into a fight is very different then tournament or average street fight. We could discuss this in some other topic, but i guess it's clear to everyone that in a situation when a fanatic fan doesnít want to release the VIP's hand, it's way better to cause the release using pressure points then taking him down with a double leg take down and starting grappling on the floor. Yes, the head butts, knees and elbows would also work great but they are not always the best (legal) option.
You have to have strategies to utilize in all kinds of fighting situations. And Okinawan arts (DKI Ryukyu Kempo) have them. Pressure points are just your first option since they are the most humane way to subdue the opponent, but unless for any reason they dont work, you imidiately go for other strategies....
People should listen more what Dillman is actually teaching.

Is Dillman Tuite different then Oyatas? I believe some things might be different but then again, would Oyata promote him to 7.DAN if he didn't know anything like some people are trying to claim here?
But i guess what people from Oyatas system, DKI, DSI, CKA or KI are looking for or at least should be looking for is most effective fighting methods utilizing pressure points. Personally i don't care who taught it to whom or what is ''original''. If it works, i want to learn it too.

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#108442 - 04/19/04 02:16 PM Re: Are the 5 elements real?
kempocos Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 516
Loc: flemington,nj,usa
ICE , Perhaps I was not clear we agree on all lines. To move past rumors and to make available all the views on these concepts so folks can determine what fits best to thier style of MA.

With all do respect there is a differance between meeting, taking one or two seminars and training under someone. I also feel it is the NO TOUCH KO / KIAI KO claims that started the comments in regards to GM DILLMAN. His knowledge on the subject is very deep I own his books, I just have issue with any NOTOUCH/SOUND based techniques.

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#108443 - 04/19/04 02:45 PM Re: Are the 5 elements real?
Kempoman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
I guess I should weigh in on this begin a former DKI Rep. First off let me say thank you to kempocos and ICE for keeping this discussion (which usually degenerates into a flame war) on track and sans ad hominem attacks.

George and Kim are friends of mine and have done much to spread the message of kyusho/tuite jutsu throughout the world.

The most important point of ICE's post...the information taught and shown at the seminars is first year/first month stuff.

It is NOT what is/was taught to those who either studied with George directly or one of his advanced students. Those who have been around DKI a while know who can do it/teach it and know who can't. I applaud those who actually go to a DKI seminar with George, but you will not be getting the goods at these functions.

Secondly I agree with kempocos about the no-touch/sound stuff. I personally think that the close-in no-touch is nothing more than physiological events taking place (I have detailed this in another post, I can repeat this effect without using chi). The sound stuff is questionable but seems to have some basis in reality.

Like him or not George Dillman is a martial arts icon. Does it get a bit over-hyped and agressively advertised, sure but good information is disseminated.

Pressure points as a the main focus of study will do very little in increasing your ability to defend yourself. It must be coupled with a solid grounding in the basics, timing, knowing how to destroy their balance and practice.

Kempoman
FightingArts.com - Moderator

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#108444 - 04/19/04 03:31 PM Re: Are the 5 elements real?
kempocos Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 516
Loc: flemington,nj,usa
Kempoman, well said . I agree with the seminar comments. The problem is many folks on boards such as this one draw opions on the whole of the style from one review, a short video clip or website pics..

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#108445 - 05/20/04 05:40 PM Re: Are the 5 elements real?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I am a new student to KYUSHO INTERNATIONAL and I see all of your points , yes some times learning this stuff you don't understand everything at once it is importent that you learn at your own pace you don't need to know every point at once just try to use the ones that are in your art then incorperate other points as you move on ........ always remember to move the energy from the down to up for good KO's......

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