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#108332 - 05/11/05 01:34 PM Re: Dim Mak [Re: BuDoc]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
There are NOT thousands of deaths due to ANY pressure point applications in the US. If anyone is going to make claims like this then back it up with facts. Provide a link to a legitimate news source covering the death and attributing it to the use of pressure points.
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#108333 - 05/11/05 01:41 PM Re: Dim Mak [Re: Hedgehogey]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Hedgehogey,

You have ignored my questions repeatedly yet continue to run off at the mouth. Your time here is short lived.
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#108334 - 05/11/05 04:56 PM Re: Dim Mak [Re: laf7773]
BuDoc Offline
The doctor will see you now

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1067
Loc: USA and Abroad
Laf, to be fair it was I, not Hedehogey that posted regarding thousands of deaths in the US. I beleive I said inexplicable NOT specifically pressure point related. However a simple MEDLINE.com search can provide literally hundreds of cases where victims died from inexplicable trauma no more sever than light contact, broken fingers, being grabbed or shaken. None however regarding death by massage

I was trying to make a point to some about getting facts strait, and apparently fell victim to my own hubris by not providing a clear and accurate explanation.

I apologize to all for the confusion. And for being an alarmist

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#108335 - 05/11/05 06:49 PM Re: Dim Mak [Re: BuDoc]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5821
Loc: USA
BuDoc

Just to be fair however, the "inexplicable" deaths you mention were NOT caused by delibrate action--no-one tried to kill them with just a touch.
To couch a discussion of the dim mak in terms "inexpicable" deaths is not really all that accurate.
No more accurate than talking about possible spontanious human combustion and possible effects of when your chi gets all out of wack.

But lets give the Dim Mak every possible break here.

(I had long talk about them with a buddy of mine and his sifu)

-The Dim Mak take YEARS to learn, if you can find anyone that can teach it.

-The Dim Mak requirs the hitting of VERY precise points, hard to do in the melee of a fight.
A tiny bit "off" in any direction has no effect.

-In addition the wearing of long shirts (for example) make it hard to actually see where your supposed to strike.
And the wearing of heavy cloths, such as winter jacket could well blunt the amount of force it would take to effect the kill.

-Certain strories indicate that there are various treatment that a person can take that will allow them to survive the DImMak.

-Certian stories also indicate that if one is skilled enough that the effect of the DimMAk can be shrugged off.

-Dim Mak requires tha certain areas must be "spotted" at certain times of the day.
What happens if your attacked at 9:00 AM and the 1:00 PM spot is not within reach.

-There does not seem to be a "instant" death touch, the majority of the stories deal with delayed deaths.
Be a real shame to Dim Mak someone, have them beat you to death then die 3 days later--might make you you feel better and would certainly scare anyone who saw it happen--but it would do you (already being dead and all) no good.

I personally think that the old masters were capable of weird and terrible things.

(on the other hand, Pan Qin Fu once remarked "If the old masters could really jump 30 feet then why did they have stairs in their houses??)

Very interesting discussion!!!!
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#108336 - 05/11/05 08:15 PM Re: Dim Mak [Re: cxt]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I think the HK movie industry has much to be responsible for perpetuating the myth of "dim mak". Even today, you see that same myth being perpetuated in modern productions like "Hidden Tiger Crouching Dragon", or even "Kiss of the Dragon".

"Dim mak" means to touch the pulse. In Chinese medical terms, "qi" is one of the fundamental beliefs, in which the "pulse" can be affected. Understand that the concept of "pulse" in Chinese medicine bears no resemblance to its Western medical counterpart.

A pressure point can be affected by touch stimulation (massage), needles or heat (moxa, hot cupping etc.). The Chinese talk about the internal function of the body in terms of "qi" imbalance and believe that the "qi" of the body can be affected internally (herbs) or via external stimulation (pressure points).

The simplistic explanation in western medical terms is that stimulating the peripheral nervous system affects the automomic nervous system, which in turn, affect the proper functioning of internal organs.

However, the myth of either an instant or delayed death touch is just that - a myth. More than likely an instant death "touch" would be the result of excessive blunt force trauma leading to internal haemorraghing, shock and death. A delayed death "touch" is also more likely the result of internal injuries caused by such trauma.

But, boy, one would have to have really *strong* "qi" to be able to do that - and with 2 fingers like you see in the movies. And quite frankly, I don't think it's possible to "touch" someone in several choice pressure points and have them "freeze" on the spot, or undo the "freeze" by touching a few more points. Or in the case of "Kiss of the Dragon", a needle in a "forbidden point".

On another more interesting note, my wife shared with me this story about her father and a calf he had. This story came up during a conversation about pressure points and the first time she ever heard him swear.

Apparently he "tapped" this calf on the head with a stick to get it to move out of the holding yard, and the darn thing dropped dead.

Must have been one hell of a lucky shot....

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#108337 - 05/11/05 10:18 PM Re: Dim Mak [Re: cxt]
BuDoc Offline
The doctor will see you now

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1067
Loc: USA and Abroad
Of course you are correct CXT. These deaths are in no way intentional(as far as I know). Nor would I attribute them to any type of "Death Touch" training.

I am not trying to compare them to Dim Mak, Kyusho, Tuite, etc. Merely trying to point out that even accidentaly some people drop dead inexplicably.

Funny you should mention spontaneous combustion. My girlfriends mother thinks this will happen every time she gets a "hot flash".

Apologies again to all. My brain sometimes goes a mile a minute and I don't communicate effectively in this medium.

Let me say this. I do not really know what "Dim Mak" is, or what it is not. This term is not one that I use. I do believe in pressure point and vital point striking, and I do practice and teach this. Call it what you will.

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#108338 - 05/12/05 10:26 AM Re: Dim Mak [Re: BuDoc]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5821
Loc: USA
Budoc

And please don't get the wrong idea about my post.
I understand where your coming from and I agree with you.

Just a very interesting topic and I would like to listen to more folks views.

My thanks to you for taking the time to express yourself.
I am not very good at doing so either.
So I really appreciate you taking the time to do so.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#108339 - 05/12/05 01:59 PM Re: Dim Mak [Re: AgenT]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
Thank you AgenT. Nicely stated.

Regarding research, I reread my post. Too much enthusiasm. The research is in progress. When Master Pantazi says something, I believe he'll do exactly as he says. This is good in the dojo but not very scholarly in an eclectic forum.

Yes we do have accidental knock-outs in light sparring. We are reminded to go lighter. Control control control. When striking points in moving drills, you go for getting kind of an electric feeling radiating from the point, or a dazed feeling, or more pain than you would otherwise expect from the strike. For accuracy, it is better to practice light. If you hit heavy, you loose the sensation.

If I could ask a question back though, I'm coming from K.I. I did not research every other way to study. What kinds of drills do other people do in their study to learn to attack points in motion? Someone might have a good exercise that I can use. If it improves my training, I would be grateful.
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#108340 - 05/12/05 06:30 PM Re: Dim Mak [Re: underdog]
AgenT Offline
Member

Registered: 10/11/04
Posts: 314
Hmm, its hard to explain drills on a forum. As far as karate goes thats one of the chief purposes of kata. Through kata we learn proper body weapon, angle and positioning. After a student has a grasp of kata, we then take it to 1-3 step drills. In the drills the attacker will target areas with several points, the defender will target and attack a area as well but will also have to defend in one motion. If etheir attack or defense fails the student changes their tactics untill a definate blow or set of blows is accomplished. That teachs a student to improvise and also gives a idea of which methods work better for different body types. That is then followed by full contact sparring at 75 percent power at all ranges, where the student practices creating openings and simultanious offense/defense, as well as how to end the attack as fast as possible. They also learn a form of autokinmatics--using methods to position a attacker for a kill strike. Makiwara training is sometimes used to develop gripping and striking power. Theres also taping small pieces of paper to a punching bag and pratice attacking the points to get accurate when it comes to hitting a moving target. The reason we go for areas containing alot of points is simple. The chances of hitting any one point by instinct through clothing is very unlikely so we target area's containing 5 or more points. I hope you find something usefull in this post as I'm not to good at explaining drills online.

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#108341 - 05/13/05 01:29 PM Re: Dim Mak [Re: AgenT]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
Thank you. To the extent that you can communicate a drill in words without video, you were clear. It sounds like we do some similar exercises.

The training striking small points on a bag would be different. Sparring at 75% would be different for me personally, although I'm pretty sure that other people in the dojo train that way. When I was doing that last time, Shihan came by and wanted to know why we were "slamming" each other. Generally we look for lighter but every once in awhile it is very good to spar stronger because, after all, this isn't quilting class.

We have a variety of specific drills we use that progress and help the learner hit points in motion where the learner moves from knowing where s/he will strike, to having no clue and going for what presents.

I ask because when I read the critics of my style, they often criticize that we don't practice in motion and that we are static. That isn't the way we practice. We practice in motion. If you can't hit in motion and targeting what presents itself in motion, then how good will your art be when you need it in motion and a real perpetrator isn't striking you with one of your memorized kumite? or kata?

We also target clusters of points. This would be especially true for targets on the torso and neck. On the head, arms and legs, I would more likely target specific points. P2 is really cool. SJ 11, which is really 10&11 and SJ 12 are essential for tuite and so on. The wrists, inside of the knees around K10, the ankels around Sp 6 etc are still clusters, even if we call them single points for communication's sake. Anyway, attacking single points like P2, LI 10 would be how we would learn to attack points that are moving instead of the bag. Bag lets you hit harder. That would be an important piece that I am missing.

We do the kata work for targets angle and direction too.

How about other people? Do you have a good exercise that teaches striking points/cavities/targets in motion? Please share.
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