I don't know if this is the place to post this but we will soon find out.

I study taekwon do and Kyusho Jitsu. Once the topic of sounds that effect the body and responses came up.

There is a Master by the name of Song Pak. Is there anyone else that has heard of or studied with the said person?

Also, more info. He claims that certain sounds move more internal power and cause the opponent to falter. IE "sa" can deflect or cause an attacker to not be able to hit you in the head.

I'll do some more research too, but if you know what I am talking about please chime in.

PS. If you don't know anything about this don't just say it isn't true or don't work.

Good day

I know Song very well; I have trained with him several times over the past several years
Song knows what he is talking about and can demonstrate very effectively
You might also look up Garry Rooks he does sound work as well and has some good videos – I train with Gary on a regular basis as well. http://www.angelfire.com/ga/cincinnatikarate/index.html

My base art is GoJu and I also study and teach Kyusho-Jitsu. We incorporate sound (Kia-Jitsu) into our Kyuhso training and it very clearly works. I have demonstrated this over and over.

Take the time to learn Kia-Jitsu and it will greatly enhance your pressure point work You have an excellent source in Mast Pak

Hi YK

Took the trouble to look at the link.

Interesting set of photo's. Gary appears to take a step forward and claims that by emiting a sound he KO's his opponent.
(Apparently he released a fire sound)

Does anyone actually believe this garbage?

JohnL

[This message has been edited by JohnL (edited 09-17-2003).]

John your open mindedness never ceases to amaze me

Acutally John using sound to effect the human body is a well proven science. Infrasound (very low frequency sound), being one of the most dangerous.

Check out my post here
http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000024.html
and the link provided. I'll also post some info on a study done with qigong masters and their ability to emit sound around the 6.5-12Hz levels.

Kempoman

We have carried out a study at the university using WSM showing that Qi can be emitted from the human body. This has been submitted for publication and once it has been I will provide a link to the paper.

We work with sound on a regular basis both Song Pak and Gary Rooks are part of DKI and teach and demonstrate sound on a regular basis, as do most of the senior instructors, including of course Dillman Sensei whom without most of this information would simply not be available to the general martial arts community. We have been discussing curtailing these activities and only doing more basic Kyusho in the publics workshops simply because of the closed-minded attitudes and responses this more esoteric knowledge solicits.

People who stay open-minded and study know this is real and want to make the effort to add it to their knowledge base.

Best wishes

In Yoga sounds are known to stimulate the internal organs...what organ gets stimulated depends on what sound you make.

Does sound affect the human body?

I went to a MMA evening paying about 10 pounds to sit and watch some quality fighters working out.

With MMA in its infancy a lot of the fighters are amateurs and bring a lot of supporters with them.

MMA being what it is ...there were a lot of hard looking people in the crowd of a 1000 or so ...I'd say a lot of these guys wouldn't have needed much encouragement to join in the events.

Anyway - there we are - 4 of us sitting about 5 rows up in the audience, waiting in anticipation for the fights to start - Its sunday night and we are all having a relaxing pint and people watching...never seen so many tattoos in one place.

The lights dimmed...

All was in hush....

Even the row of meaty skinheads sitting in front of us confidently boasting of how their fighter was a champion kickboxer and untouchable quietened...

BOOOM!! An enormous firecracker was set off to signal the start of the evenings fun.

Scared out of his skin my mate sitting next to me leaped in the air like a startled cat...His pint even more startled leaped out of his glass...

All over the cackling crew in front....!!!

Fortunately they took it in good spirit, could have been the mutual cameraderie, could have been the fact that we are also follically challenged...

All I'll say is that sound caused my colleague to falter..in his pants!

Respectfully

D

[This message has been edited by dazzler2 (edited 02-26-2004).]

I don't think much of this sound thing you mentioned but if it helps you fight better well, use it. A loud Ki-op is just fine, I never liked those guys who came at me with that stupid snake hissing sound either.I'm cranky today since my wife would rather go out to dinner tonight rather than letting me train. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/mad.gif[/IMG] Bonzai

I have been training Kyusho for years , just not down Dillamns line. I trained under OYATAS line and now under DRAGON SOCIETY and thier teachings. I have had folks try this on me and I have not felt any effects. I will say that it may be the technique and not the theory that is failing. I would be very interested in the studies mentioned if they were published.

I am a student of Mr. Rooks and can testify to the effects of sound work. It is difficult to do and is extremely dependant on timing, but it does work very well in regards to strengthening the effects of a technique.

The reason sound works as Mr.Rooks explains it, is not due to the frequency so much as when the sound is made internal muscle groups collectively contract which helps push that much more energy into a technique. For example if one makes the middle warmer sound HA correctly, by dropping the tongue from the center of the roof of the mouth, the muscles of the upper chest are contract. This is why it is so necessary to coordinate the sound with the exact moment a technique is applied. To soon or too late, the benefit is lost.

While I am a student of Mr. Rooks, I do not speak for him. I offer this only to help understanding of how sound works in one respect and to state that I have seen and felt its effects many times. I have also used sound on other martial artists outside of kyusho who can atest to its power.

Thank you for your time.

Firesnake,

Your explaination makes alot of sense. I work with body alignment, stance, breath, intent etc. these rules need to be followed to make KYUSHO/TUITE work. The concept of muscle groups clears alot up in my mind anyway, can you recommend any books on this subject. Perhaps a website with articiles or contact information for a seminar in the US.

Thanks

So far, total garbage.

I on the other hand can enlighten you.

When attacked I generally sh*t my pants. This comes with the sound normally associated with this function. I have found that at this time, the attackers tend to collapse laughing, allowing my waddling escape.

Good luck

JohnL

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JohnL:


Does anyone actually believe this garbage?

JohnL
[/QUOTE]


Absolutely not. Hogwash.


"Sounds" KOing someone. NOW you know how many traditional arts get such a bad name.


-John

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JohnL:
So far, total garbage.

I on the other hand can enlighten you.

When attacked I generally sh*t my pants. This comes with the sound normally associated with this function. I have found that at this time, the attackers tend to collapse laughing, allowing my waddling escape.

Good luck

JohnL[/QUOTE]

Priceless John.......Priceless

In regards to videos and seminars regarding sound.

You can find videos regarding kiajistu and contact information for Mr.Rooks at rookskarate.com

I do not attempt to convert or convince anyone that sound makes tuite, strikes, and knockouts more powerful. I am simply stating what I understand personally and what I have seen with my own eyes. What you choose to believe is a personal choice.

I have noticed that sound, chi and no touch knockouts seem to work well only on students of this philosophy. Coincidence? Probably not.
Second, It would seem that even if it DID work, it would require years of specialized practice. I feel this time would be better spent developing strong fundamentals and an effective delivery system.

If you coan read you would see that it is emitting sounds when performin g a lock or a hold to enchance it. It is not about notouch or yelling at them. just like body postion and exhaling.

To all non-believers, shot puters and discus throwers have used sound techniques to add distance to thier throws. Strength athletes have also known the benefits of adding sound techniques to move formiddable amounts of weight and more recently Tennis players are beginning to apply sound techniques to thier matches. If you non-believers think about it for a minute, it makes sense, these athletes are'nt making noise just to here themselves...I would be interested in learning more about the sound studies when they come out.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BigDweightLftr:
To all non-believers, shot puters and discus throwers have used sound techniques to add distance to thier throws. Strength athletes have also known the benefits of adding sound techniques to move formiddable amounts of weight and more recently Tennis players are beginning to apply sound techniques to thier matches. If you non-believers think about it for a minute, it makes sense, these athletes are'nt making noise just to here themselves...I would be interested in learning more about the sound studies when they come out.[/QUOTE]

What your saying is nothing new, it Basic MA "Kia" What ever the sport, there all gathering and focusing thier energy for "That Moment."

let me tell you it does work I've felt the sounds that go through the body as a hold has been aplied to me it does increase the pain alot , it does take pratice but not years it all depends on the person , anyone you sings or knows how to use there voice can be very dangerous, as to the NO TOUCH you will not belive it unless you experince it yourself weather its done to yoy or if you see it , ITS TRUE it does work . One of my teachers showed us after a class one time how CHI works and did a NO TOUCH to another teacher , when teacher #2 felt it and hit the ground he looked back at us and asked who hit him with a bat eveyone shook there heads noone was even near him at the time when he charged the teacher after he couldn't even walk his leg was deep purple and shades of bule he was on cruches for 2 weeks .... the thing with the NO TOUCH is that the atacker has to have content or its not as afective cuse if he knows whats coming he can defend it in his mind and interrupt the other persons CHI...............

Huung Gar uses sounds in their Iron Wire form (as well as the others) to enhance chi gong practice, according to 5 elements and internal alignments.

What is this anonymous posting junk???

A comment on Hung Gar 'Iron Thread'.

From what I understand this is a very advanced Hung Gar form. So after years of work on the basics and many layers of forms, Iron Thread is trained, using specific sounds to vibrate various internal organs.

If one does so and gets results, it's of course difficult to say if its the Iron Thread, or the result of long training reaching conclusion.

Jackie Chan used the Iron Thread with his twist in the Laughing Heyena's movie. It had dramatic cinema effect.

If this interests you 1) find a Hung Gar sifu and 2)train your tale off for several decades.

Then report back on the results.

Man, JohnL should just go back to his planet and leave others alone...

I'm not gonna debate this issue, but I have been studying this stuff for a while, and i'll just give a couple examples or trials you can test, and post what your results were. Just for grins!

1. Have a partner apply a finger lock to you. 4 finger works well for this and with practice you can use 1 finger. When partner is applying the lock, you (being the locked one) either think or say SHO (long "o" sound) and see if you can easily resist the lock. ("O" is the sound for out in front of your body)

Post your experience and lets see how many can get this to work or not work. (JohnL: I really don't care to hear from you)

sorry, it didn't work. my wife just looked at me like I was an idiot.

I have no doubt sound can affect the body. Research supports it and I have felt the results of it from a science project in high school (many moons ago). But I am very skeptical of a human producing the sounds necessary.

Ok, there may be sounds that affect the human body. The problem is that these sound techniques are not reliable in any kind of combat situation. If the opponent resists (as demonstrated many times), the techniques fail almost 100% of the time.

Which means for all intents and purposes, the techniques are useless for martial arts training. So I am going to have to agree with JohnL.

Thanks for replying.

I did forget to say that i wanted to have a debate and not an argument.

And at least this hasn't turned into a Flaming argument.

The example was a defeat against the lock, (i may not have explained myself completely.)

The sound "O" or "oh" is the sound related to sending energy out away from the body, to the front of your body.
In training, we use this sound to defeat the lock, then the person doing the lock will do a breathing technique that defeats the "lock defeat".

One interesting item, we have found that some people are non-responders to pressurepoints, (my wife too) and that may be involved in the sounds not working too. But some people just don't get affected by these techniques.

I do agree that using sound only for defense is impractical, the sounds only help to amplify the physical techniques being performed.

What other ideas do you guys have on this? Or should i ask instead, do you have any helper techniques that you have found to better a technique?

Lets make this a discussion instead of a "i don't believe it and if you do you are a total idiot, or this is total bs"

I like to have civil conversations, and relize that some people just comment for the sake of commenting, you know who i'm talking about.

Peace