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#108077 - 03/21/03 10:24 AM Carotid Artery Pinch
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
One topic that repeats itself is that you can pinch off the blood flow on the Carotid artery causing unconsciousness up to death.

First that's poppycock.

Dr. Bill Glasheen (on George Mattson's Ueichi Ryu site) has pointed out that the structure of the artery is almost impossible to pinch off completely.

I have a surgeon in my classes and he points out that even if you close off the carotid artery, there are secondary blood vessels that will supply enough blood to the brain to maintain consciousness. Sometimes in surgery he has to sever the artery (and the patient is awake and remains talking with them). he has even demonstrated on me by pinching off both sides of my neck for over a minute and maintaining a conversation with me.

So regardless of what books and others say it really isn't the carotid artery which is the unconsciounsess mechanism. Nor is it a meridian St 9, rather it's the Carotid Sinus.

This is a regulator within your body that tells your heart your blood pressure is too high, and will stop the heart beating to lower the pressure. Surgeons' use this during heart surgery to stop the heart if necessary (you can cross reference this in the Encyclopedia of Dim Mak).

So what you're doing in those neck pressure situations is causing the heart to stop for a while.

Believe me, while this works, I truly don't recommend practicing this. Consider the tragic what if if you don't know what you're doing.

There are many things to consider for self defense, but unfortunately enough medical knowledgd isn't necessarily available.

Hope this helps,

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu

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#108078 - 03/21/03 11:05 AM Re: Carotid Artery Pinch
Kempoman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
Yep

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#108079 - 03/21/03 09:19 PM Re: Carotid Artery Pinch
Jamoni Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
Mr. V., do you mean literally "pinching" the arteries? Or are you talking about choking?

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#108080 - 03/22/03 04:20 AM Re: Carotid Artery Pinch
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Jamoni,

I was literally referring to a technique to pinch off the carotid artery (below the carotid sinus),that the Doctor used on me.

This would not be accomplished by a choke, and I don't see a relevance to self defense as the pinch didn't render me unconscious.

The side of the neck choke(s) are all working the carotid sinus, are effective, and as they do stop the heart, seem better not to practice or KO people with.

It's one thing for a book or a clinic demonstrator to 'SAY' this won't hurt anyone. It's entire something else, ought anything wrong occur, to try and convince an officer, a doctor, a jury a judge or your maker, "Well it was ok becasue the book or Mr. so and so said it was."

There is an inescapable logic that the guaranteed safety isn't necessarily as safe as one assumes.

Yes, I've been KO'd by this technique years and years ago, but when I practice I only let my partner begin to feel it and then I stop. The fact that I could put them out seems useless against the risk that I may do damage.

And for practice that seems wrong.

IMO

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu

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#108081 - 03/22/03 08:34 AM Re: Carotid Artery Pinch
Jamoni Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
Cool. I just wanted to make sure I didn't misunderstand you. I agree with your reluctance to KO with neck techniques. As I've stated elsewhere, the neck is too vital and too complicated to safely mess with. I treat all techniques to the neck as deadly force, and justify them only as such.

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#108082 - 09/15/03 07:49 AM Re: Carotid Artery Pinch
Bayang Offline
Stranger

Registered: 09/15/03
Posts: 4
Hi Victor/Everyone else [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Firstly I completely agree with everything you say. As you state, the carotid sinus is indeed the main reason for the KO to St9/10. This is basically due to the fact that the carotid sinus is a baroreceptor (a pressure sensitive mechanism inside the neck to monitor blood pressure). The other arteries you refer to are at the back of the neck. Once we understand this we can see that any penetrating impact upon it would render the person in la-la land. Unfortunately the dangers of hitting the carotid sinus are hardly ever taught at seminars etc. If nothing else, the danger of separating the sinus from the carotid sheath could certainly be unpleasant (sarcasm intended)for the poor willing victim at a seminar. If you are at a seminar/class whatever and the instructor wants to whack you on the carotid sinus (they say they will only tap you of course), say "no, thank you" turn around, get changed and leave and give yourself a big pat on the back as you may have saved yourself a whole lot of grief.

As far as strangles go there are a few more things that come into play to create a KO.
Carotid Sinus Stimulation - this obviously plays a part but is not always accessible, so why do people still go 'all floppy'?
Jugular Constriction - in terms of the blood flow, it is not a stopping of the blood flow to the brain that helps to create a KO but the 'backing up' and prevention of blood away from the brain via the jugular vein. Oxygen exhausted blood in the brain creates oxygen asphyxia (mild) and fainting.
Vagus Constriction - Over-stimulation of the vagus nerve can create a helping hand for the other effects.
Valsalva Effect - Due to the effect of the strangle (in terms of the stress of being throttled which most people barring weird people like martial artists who enjoy this sort of stuff). Most people hold their breath whilst exerting themselves. This creates their blood pressure to skyrocket.

With all this combined together is it any wonder people get Ko'd?!

Just my tuppence worth

Bayang (Dave T)

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