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#107949 - 06/08/02 07:46 PM How the "death touch" works
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
Reading Patrick Mc Carthy's translation of the bushibi, I see an explanation of the much vaunted "death touch". This paticular explanation goes on to say that death occurs after the strike causes severe internal hemorraging or a blood clot.

This makes sense, but it implies that i) dim mak can only be done after a hard strike, ii) implies nothing about weakening blows or fire points, iii) implies that (most) death touch points are blood gates, not nerve points in the sense of paralysing, neurological shutdown or pain points.

Thoughts?

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#107950 - 06/15/02 06:00 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
Kung Fu Wayne Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/08/02
Posts: 22
The "Death Touch" sounds nice and misterious but the fact is there are many ways to kill a person with a single strike if you strike certain meridian points at certain angles. It all revolves around stoppping the flow of the internal energy which flows through meridians, thats basically it.

I understand there are other types of "Death Touches" which relay on sending the energy of the strike deep into the body - the main principle in most striking in Kung Fu (striking loose and only tensing up just before the moment of impact).

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#107951 - 06/19/02 05:17 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
Kempoman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
Man is this ever a controversial subject...

The points run along the external trajectories of the meridians, there is also an internal trajectory as well it is using the external to get to the internal pathways that can cause these types of effects.

I wont post info on this, but will discuss in private e-mails.

Kempoman

swatkins@coral-energy.com

[This message has been edited by Kempoman (edited 06-03-2003).]

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#107952 - 07/05/02 09:20 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
Just so you know it is me, joesixpack will email you under the alias of jjnuman@hotmail.com

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#107953 - 06/03/03 07:31 AM Re: How the "death touch" works
mercurial Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 12
I have heard some theories about the famed death touch...some of which make more sense then others. One is similar to the strike performed in Bloodsport on the bricks where a specific brick was chosen and the energy of the strike was dictated to detonate there instead of the previous bricks. If I remember correctly that is a specific technique but can't profess to know it myself. The other kinda goes along with how pp's work in the first place. The way they disrupt one's internal energy. Isn't it a person's flow of energy and such which allow a person to heal and rejuvinate? If that's so couldn't there be a strike which inhibits that flow basically having the victim's energy drain out and not be replenished? Many of the tales of the dim mak have been said to not necessarily kill instantly, but kills in a number of weeks. This explanation could possibly explain that...If I understand how the pp's seem to work. If someone possess knowledge to disprove my theory feel free to let me know.

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#107954 - 06/03/03 07:42 AM Re: How the "death touch" works
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
The death touch explained.

Hit anything hard enough, it dies!

Does my MA lack something in subtlety [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

JohnL

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#107955 - 06/03/03 08:15 AM Re: How the "death touch" works
Anonymous
Unregistered


John, I wish you taught in the UK.
There are many "martial artists" I would like to introduce you to.
Loved your death touch explaination.
Sharon

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#107956 - 06/03/03 09:52 AM Re: How the "death touch" works
York Karate Offline
Member

Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 132
Loc: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
Yes John you have missed the “point, I won’t discuss delayed reaction to Kysuho strikes, but adress you hit them hard enough comment.

While blunt force trauma can be effective the reason is a message sent to the nervous system. The problem with blunt force trauma is not only does it require size and strength it also results in damage – bruises, broken bones and cuts. This damage, if severe enough, can cause permanent injury it also places us at risk because of the chance of infection resulting from exposure to open wounds such as cuts

The main idea or principle behind karate-jitsu the real heart of karate is the use of pressure points. Most people understand vital points – like the eyes for example. Pressure points or Kyusho are less known points on the body. Pressure points are used in the healing art of acupuncture to restore health. In Karate-Jitsu these same pressure points are touched, hit or rubbed to make techniques effective for fighting and self-defence. Without the use of pressure points a confrontation is decided by the lowest common dominator blunt- force trauma, which is simply a function of size and strength. How can a 98-pound woman or child defend himself or herself against a 250-pound attacker regardless of their fitness or skill level? The only way is with the effective use of pressure points.

What is a pressure point? A pressure point is a place on the body where a signal or message can be entered directly into the nervous system. Muscle and bone cannot feel pain, only nerves can feel pain. .

Pressure points – Kyusho- Jistu - provide the tool to effectively, safely and humanely defend oneself as well as provide a deeper understanding of the appliaction (bunkai) for basics amd kata.

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#107957 - 06/03/03 01:05 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Hi York

As you're new to the forum, you won't quite get my sarcasm yet. Give it time though.

I thought a couple of points you made were worth commenting on though.

"I won’t discuss delayed reaction to Kysuho strikes."

I will. When I hit the bugger, I want him to drop NOW. Not in half an hour, not in a week, not some time when there's a full moon. NOW!

"The problem with blunt force trauma is not only does it require size and strength it also results in damage – bruises, broken bones and cuts."

Yup. That's the idea! (size doesn't matter, strength helps)

"This damage, if severe enough, can cause permanent injury it also places us at risk because of the chance of infection resulting from exposure to open wounds such as cuts"

If you are defending yourself, these are the least of your problems.

"The main idea or principle behind karate-jitsu the real heart of karate is the use of pressure points."

Says who?

"In Karate-Jitsu these same pressure points are touched, hit or rubbed to make techniques effective for fighting and self-defence."

Touching or rubbing them. If you are telling people that touching or rubbing pressure points is effective self defence, think again. The touching or rubbing is done in seminars so people don't get hurt too much.

"Without the use of pressure points a confrontation is decided by the lowest common dominator blunt- force trauma, which is simply a function of size and strength."

Who says blunt trauma is the lowest common denominator? Teaching people to generate good force with what they have is a skill worth having. If you're going to hit pressure points your blunt trauma skills had better be up to snuff.

"How can a 98-pound woman or child defend himself or herself against a 250-pound attacker regardless of their fitness or skill level?"

Garbage.
Pressure points will not help one bit in the situation you describe. She's gonna get a thumpin'.

"The only way is with the effective use of pressure points."

Without an efficient delivery system, knowing pressure points isn't going to help.

"Pressure points – Kyusho- Jistu - provide the tool to effectively, safely and humanely defend oneself"

No they don't. It's irresponsible posts like yours that send people to the pressure point seminars seeking a magical fix to why they suck at MA's. They then return thinking they can defend themselves without a good delivery system. When I defend myself or my family the last thing I'm concerned with is if I'm being humane to the bast**d.

Welcome to the forum [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

JohnL

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#107958 - 06/03/03 01:49 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by York Karate:
Yes John you have missed the “point, I won’t discuss delayed reaction to Kysuho strikes, but adress you hit them hard enough comment.

While blunt force trauma can be effective the reason is a message sent to the nervous system. The problem with blunt force trauma is not only does it require size and strength it also results in damage – bruises, broken bones and cuts. This damage, if severe enough, can cause permanent injury it also places us at risk because of the chance of infection resulting from exposure to open wounds such as cuts

[/QUOTE]

So when does a "death touch" not cause permanent damage?

Sharon

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#107959 - 06/03/03 02:22 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
Kempoman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
Pressure Points should be used to enhance techniques and abilities already learned and worked out. It won't help one whit to someone with no proper training in how to hit, understaning of tai-sabaki, ashi-sabaki and so on.

Most KO's (which if this is all you are training the points for, you have made a large mistake) that are shown and demonstrated in a seminar situation will not work under duress. This trend to get 'kooky' and complex with the tecniques is crazy.

This is a part of a very bad trend to try and come up with KO's that don't come from the kata. If you practice the kata enough and then you wont be trying to hit the points, you will because it is how you trained.

BTW I don't use them anymore myself, I have moved on to Xingyiquan which makes the whole body a pressure point [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

P.S. delayed reactions of points have no martial application at all during the fight.


Scott

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#107960 - 06/04/03 07:55 AM Re: How the "death touch" works
York Karate Offline
Member

Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 132
Loc: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
Where to start?
Lets start here “Touching or rubbing them. If you are telling people that touching or rubbing pressure points is effective self defence, think again. The touching or rubbing is done in seminars so people don't get hurt too much.”
Well the police who train at my dojo tell me, as have every police officer I have ever asked, that somewhere between 70 –80% of the conflicts that they are called to are ones where people are pushing and grapping each other. In cases where this is the type and level of conformation using tuite and activating pressure points by rubbing etc is very effective. It allows you to control the situation without major escalation. The result is you are able to defend your self safely without being arrested, and yes at least here you will very likely be arrested for excessive force it you start striking to cause damage. I realize hitting and using blunt force is easier and requires less training, but it is not always the answer to every situation.
“Who says blunt trauma is the lowest common denominator? Teaching people to generate good force with what they have is a skill worth having. If you're going to hit pressure points your blunt trauma skills had better be up to snuff.”
"How can a 98-pound woman or child defend himself or herself against a 250-pound attacker regardless of their fitness or skill level?"
“Garbage. Pressure points will not help one bit in the situation you describe.She's gonna get a thumpin'”
Lets start with you first statement how else would you describe the use of size and strength? It is the lowest common demonstrator, because it is the base it requires the least amount of skill and training.
Now you can add skill to blunt force – I teach and stress in every class “foundation skills” – the correct use of biomechanics, breathing, stance etc.. These “foundation skills” apply to all aspects to martial arts from blunt force trauma to finger locks and Kyusho. No technique will be really effective without strong foundation skills to support it.
In respect to your second point, “She's gonna get a thumpin'”, then why train in the martial arts? It simply makes no sense to invest time and effort into something that has limited or no payback. If a small person wants to be fit they would – based on your assessment, be better off in a gym. If as you believe all confrontations are resolved on size and strength and the use of blunt force then the martial arts are only going to be effective for big people – so sorry all you women, children and small men don’t waste your time.
The whole point behind pressure points is they are the equalizer, and if used correctly can to very effective. I have had several small female students attacked by those big macho guys who are using size and strength to intimidate. In every case they were bale to use pressure points to get away from these “men”. One case in particular comes to mind where a very petite female student who had been training with us for 3 months was at the university pub and when one of these macho guys grabbed her. She affected the release kicked SP6 and hit him on ST5 and he dropped to the floor. The bouncers tossed him and she got a standing ovation from very women there. If she was a black belt who trained in “traditional – read sport - karate” and tried those silly blocks alone and strikes she would have lost – but by combining them with pressure points it was effective – it does work if you train.

Scoot I fully agree that “Pressure Points should be used to enhance techniques and abilities already learned and worked out.”
I can’t speak for others by both my own training and that I teach is focused solely on simple and effective techniques we always look to basics and kata. Basics are the building blocks for kata so I start people working basics, because I believe every basic is a Kyusho technique. If you work this every time you work basics you will learn the skill, then when you work kata you are working a series of basics.
And yes there are levels blunt force, pressure points, energy manipulation, sound, colour and so one. But you need to build a solid foundation upon which to build your house, so we start teaching Kyusho from day one – teaching principles and making sure people know what a technique can do
Everyone is entitled to an opinion and to train as they desire but I believe you are misleading children and their parents, women and small men if you think correctly executed blunt force is the answer. Go train in a gym to get fit or train to defend yourself with pressure point applications .

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#107961 - 06/04/03 09:34 AM Re: How the "death touch" works
Yoseikan Student Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: UK
[QUOTE]Originally posted by York Karate:

In respect to your second point, “She's gonna get a thumpin'”, then why train in the martial arts? It simply makes no sense to invest time and effort into something that has limited or no payback. If a small person wants to be fit they would – based on your assessment, be better off in a gym.

[/QUOTE]

I'd just like to say that i'm really enjoying reading this. My pressure point knowledge is limited and its interesting to see the debate.

To be honest i'm a bit of a doubter in terms of the effectiveness of touching and rubbing people when they are trying to chew your nose off, but thats not to say I think the system is without validity.

From what i've seen demonstrated in terms of the more 'soft' style of pressure point fighting, i'm always wondering how much compliance was given on the part of the uke. However having said that i don't doubt the effectiveness of a precise hard strike to a particular point.

In reference the the above quote, surely martial arts isn't soley about being an effective fighter on the (wait for it)...... 'STREET'. 'cos frankly whilst I love training and all the benefits I'm not about to devote hundreds of hours of training to deal with a handful of situations in my life that will last only a few seconds and in all likelihood I could get taken out anyway. The sort of situations that I can run from or might get taken out from behind with a 2by4, or have to face multiple opponents and lose any way. Training a good right cross or an attack to point 'insert appropriate obscure number and letter [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]' aint gonna help much in a smokey, dark, noisey club when someone lays a hand on your shoulder from behind and sticks a knife in your back. Don't you think? Ability to defend yourself is hopefully one benefit we gain from training, but surely training is more than just a trip to the gym if we reject that objective?

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#107962 - 06/04/03 12:48 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Hi York Karate:
Glad you responded. It's nice to know that some of the comments I make cause thought.

A few points on your reply;

"Well the police who train at my dojo tell me, as have every police officer I have ever asked, that somewhere between 70 –80% of the conflicts that they are called to are ones where people are pushing and grapping each other."

The case for police is different. If an altercation occurs a policeman is far less likely to get a full blown attack launched at him than a regular guy. If the policeman does get subjected to this kind of attack, they certainly don't rub or touch pressure points. Gross motor skills take over.

"It allows you to control the situation without major escalation."

I disagree
If you are involved in an altercation and try to rub a guys pressure points (sorry about that [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] ) you are liable to be eating his fist before you realise the scenario has escalated.

"I realize hitting and using blunt force is easier and requires less training, but it is not always the answer to every situation."

Who says it's easier and requires less training.

"It is the lowest common demonstrator, because it is the base it requires the least amount of skill and training."

No it doesn't.

"Now you can add skill to blunt force – I teach and stress in every class “foundation skills” – the correct use of biomechanics, breathing, stance etc.. These “foundation skills” apply to all aspects to martial arts from blunt force trauma to finger locks and Kyusho. No technique will be really effective without strong foundation skills to support it."

Great, now we're getting somewhere.

"The whole point behind pressure points is they are the equalizer, and if used correctly can to very effective."

Without the skills of a good delivery system your knowledge of pressure points is of no use. You may know where they are, but without the appropriate skills you will never hit them strongly or accurately enough to have any effect.

"a very petite female student who had been training with us for 3 months was at the university pub and when one of these macho guys grabbed her. She affected the release – it does work if you train."

If she had no fighting training prior to her time with you then the fact that she got out of the situation unscathed is pure luck. If you're now telling people that with pressure point training and nothing else you can defend yourself you are doing more harm than good. A beginner who is told this may be stupid enough to think he can handle himself and stick his/her nose into a situation he cannot control. There are far too many Walter Mitty type MA's out there already. They generally end up getting badly hurt.

"I believe you are misleading children and their parents, women and small men if you think correctly executed blunt force is the answer. Go train in a gym to get fit or train to defend yourself with pressure point applications ."

As I said before, without the basic delivery system the pressure points won't work. To tell women/children that these are the great equalizer is to put them in a more dangerous situation than if they knew nothing. To fight effectively you need to be fit, you need a good delivery system, you need to be good at your system, you need to have trained in other systems. If you then add to that knowledge and ability base by learning pressure points, fine.

JohnL

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#107963 - 06/04/03 01:19 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
Anonymous
Unregistered


I have very limited knowlege of pressure points because I have only recently started learning about them, but here's my opinion anyway.
I have had them demonstrated on me and they DO work, but they only stop someone in their tracks if you STRIKE them.
I think knowing where they are is a great bonus if you can also strike effectively, but I personally find the nose or the jaw much easier to hit than a pressure point in which a small area has to be hit at a certain angle.
As John says, there is much skill needed to strike effectively.
York Karate, how long have you been training?
Sharon

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#107964 - 06/04/03 01:22 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Yoseikan Student:
[B

To be honest i'm a bit of a doubter in terms of the effectiveness of touching and rubbing people

B][/QUOTE]

Are you single? [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]
Sorry, couldn't resist!
Sharon

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#107965 - 06/04/03 02:16 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
malanr Offline
Member

Registered: 05/30/03
Posts: 66
Loc: IN USA
JohnL,

Do you understand this is a discussion forum, not a "you are wrong, I know all" forum?

I am just saying it is interesting how you tear everything up and try to eat it for dinner. I think you need to get some Kyusho instruction. then you might understand what we are talking about.

Pressure Points hurt, rubbing, touching or striking. If you hit me in the head, yea it might hurt and if you are lucky you might knock me out. but if you don't hit a pressure point, and don't knock me out, then i'm gonna get real pi$$ed and you better watch out.

Does anyone else agree with me?

York, I agree 100%

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#107966 - 06/04/03 02:31 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
York Karate Offline
Member

Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 132
Loc: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
Malanr a great point an open mind goes a long way - however I am use to this type of approach and frankly it doesn't bother me, just makes me a bit sad for the art. But if they don't want to listen or learn it is their loss not mine.

Sharon I can assure you PP work with a rub, from a finger lock , from a touch or yes a strike. It is all situational and based on your skill level just like any other aspect of the arts.

As a women you need these because no matter how much time you spend training without them size and strength will determine the outcome

Per our request Martial Arts Bio
I started my martial arts training 1978 in Tai Chi. I am currently a student of Master George Dillman in Kyusho Jitsu in which a hold a rank of GoDan and Tasshi Alvarez in Okinawain GoJu Karate in which I hold a rank of YonDan.

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#107967 - 06/04/03 02:34 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
malanr Offline
Member

Registered: 05/30/03
Posts: 66
Loc: IN USA
York, I study under Bill Anders, former Student of George Dillman. Small world ain't it.

"keep on, keepin on"

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#107968 - 06/04/03 04:56 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by York Karate:
"Malanr a great point an open mind goes a long way - however I am use to this type of approach and frankly it doesn't bother me, just makes me a bit sad for the art. But if they don't want to listen or learn it is their loss not mine."

Tut, tut, tut YK. You do not know if I have an open mind or not. I listen, and contribute to the forum regularly. Just because my own views don't necessarily coincide with yours, doesn't mean I'm not open minded.

"Sharon I can assure you PP work with a rub, from a finger lock , from a touch or yes a strike. It is all situational and based on your skill level just like any other aspect of the arts."

Trying to grab someones fingers in the heat of a confrontation is dubious practice at best. You're also likely to slip off as you'll be sweating at the time. I still argue that rubbing/touching PP's is ineffective for self defence.

"As a women you need these because no matter how much time you spend training without them size and strength will determine the outcome"

Size isn't that important. Strength is a relevant factor.

Malanr
I'll discuss any subject you wish, just because I put my opinions forward forcefully doesn't mean I'm not listening to others.

Your comment, "I think you need to get some Kyusho instruction. then you might understand what we are talking about."

You do not know my background. Making assumptions about someone you don't know is dangerous. If you take this philosophy on the street, you may come unstuck. What you see on the surface isn't necessarily a true reflection of what's on the inside.

JohnL

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#107969 - 06/04/03 05:29 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by York Karate:


As a women you need these because no matter how much time you spend training without them size and strength will determine the outcome

[/QUOTE]

Sorry to argue with a yondan, but I disagree. Size and strength are only two factors in the outcome of a confrontation.
Despite being female and only weighing 130 pounds, I am more than capable of looking after myself.
I appreciate that you know a lot more about pressure points than I do, but please do not make assumptions about me, particularly ones based soley on my gender or on the fact that I train in a different way to you.
With respect
Sharon



[This message has been edited by wadowoman (edited 06-04-2003).]

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#107970 - 06/04/03 05:32 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by wadowoman:
Sorry to argue with a godan, but I disagree. Size and strength are only two factors in the outcome of a confrontation.
Despite being female and only weighing 130 pounds, I am more than capable of looking after myself.
I appreciate that you know a lot more about pressure points than I do, but please do not make assumptions about me, particularly ones based soley on my gender or on the fact that I train in a different way to you.
With respect
Sharon

[This message has been edited by wadowoman (edited 06-04-2003).]
[/QUOTE]

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#107971 - 06/04/03 05:55 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
Yoseikan Student Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: UK
[QUOTE]Originally posted by wadowoman:
Are you single? [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]
Sorry, couldn't resist!
Sharon

[/QUOTE]

I refer you to my entire sentence and risking the wrath of moderation, Sharon, i'd like to emphasise that i've never courted a young lady who tried to chew my nose off. But hey, whatever floats your boat [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG].


[This message has been edited by Yoseikan Student (edited 06-04-2003).]

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#107972 - 06/04/03 07:20 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
York Karate Offline
Member

Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 132
Loc: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
Sorry Sharon but I have to agree with John if you plan to fight straight up using traditional karate or related empty handed styles against a large strong man you will get beat, size and strength will decide the matter. By the by I never said this was a gender issue it is a function of size and strength a small 130 male would face the same issue.

Train to have fun train to learn and train to defend yourself and the latter requires a skill set to equalize size and strength.

I have said my piece on this issue, we are starting to around in circles

Good luck with your path


PS I never made an issue of my rank you asked

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#107973 - 06/04/03 08:01 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
Yoseikan Student Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: UK
Sorry Sharon but I have to agree with John if you plan to fight straight up using traditional karate or related empty handed styles against a large strong man you will get beat, size and strength will decide the matter. By the by I never said this was a gender issue it is a function of size and strength a small 130 male would face the same issue.

I'm sorry, but NO he bloody wouldn't, and John did NOT say that. And with first hand knowledge I can assure you that I wouldn't be placing any bets on the big heavy man that Sharon is hypothetically facing. I'm 140 pounds and without biggin' myself up I'm willing to scrap with much bigger and heavier opponents. Yes their strength and weight is a problem, but pressure points are NOT the only solution. I'm capable of generating power through technique and pure bloody mindedness and viciousness and dropping blokes bigger than me. I CAN'T go toe to toe with them (i've tried in the boxing ring and with a big difference in strength its usually an entertaining form of suicide), or grapple for any great period of time, but I can strike decisively and take people out.

Traditional karate gives you the tools to do this, as do many other open hand styles. Power is more important than strength and power is a product of force and velocity. Force is derived from strength and GOOD TECHNIQUE, and velocity is developed from training - practicing the correct relaxation, explosion and isometric contraction. If Sharon or I punch our weight with correct targeting there is no reason why we can't drop people twice our size without noncing about trying to grab point so and so 2 inches to the left of point such and such, on a Saturday afternoon about tea time in the third week of the month.

I can put my fingers in his eyes, I can crush his testicals, I can crush the cartilidge in his throat I can strike him hard on the chin, or round the ears and destroy his balance, I can bite, I can plaster his nose across his face. The list goes on and I don't need to be as big heavy or strong. The only necessity is to go to the heart of the matter with the attitude of ripping your opponent a brand new *rs*hole. These are stopping techniques.

with respect.


[This message has been edited by Yoseikan Student (edited 06-04-2003).]

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#107974 - 06/04/03 08:58 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
York Karate Offline
Member

Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 132
Loc: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
I have never understood the need for such vehemence – a dialogue and discussion can be carried out without this.

You are free to try all these nasty things if you want, firstly I don’t understand why you seem to think it is easy to strike the eyes for example but go on about “without noncing about trying to grab point so and so 2 inches to the left of point such and such, on a Saturday afternoon about tea time in the third week of the month.”

Pressure points are simple to attack if you study them and the activation area is about the size of a quarter (or an eye) so if you feel confident you can strike an eye why do you feel so confident I can’t strike a pressure point?

I said “foundation skills” are important and having a base art to add them to is important having said that at 140 if you put your base karate skills up against a 240 pound man trained in a similar base skill size and strength will determine the outcome. I keep saying it is the lowest common demonstrator and it is. All things being equal the big buck will win.

Karate has it roots in Bubishi, which systematically describes how to extinguish human life in very specific terms, by seizing, pressing, squeezing or traumatising specific points.

So your base art has all this in it but the information was not transferred to westerns. It has required work to rediscover this information and reapply it.

I also said most fights start with pushing and grapping and this is back up by police officers inside my dojo and everywhere I speak to them. This aggressive punch for punch fighting is rare indeed at least where I live. Fights start with a push and a reasonable response is not to crush someone’s larynx, this will land you in jail, a response needs to be measured and appropriate.

While I am more than capable of looking after myself given my physical size and strength and well as skill level in both my base art and Kyusho I want to avoid hurting someone at all costs.


When I was recently attacked in a mall but a street tough ˝ my age I was able to control the situation so no one was hurt using skill not blunt force trauma

I might also point out the best response is one that does not involve physical confrontation at all.

Now I am really done with this, I am not going to post on this topic again, we are going in circles you are welcome to your opinion and path as I am mine.

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#107975 - 06/05/03 07:12 AM Re: How the "death touch" works
Yoseikan Student Offline
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Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: UK
Eyes can be accessible targets, not always, but its a good example of a target that stops people no matter where you strike it. Much easier to access then a point covered by loose or thick clothing, which whilst might have an 'activation' area of the same diameter, doesn't produce the same results if you are slightly out. Nasty works.

I don't doubt your ability, nor the effectiveness of a strike to a point, but I don't believe touching or rubbing does anymore than annoy and cause pain. It doesn't deal with the threat, and with the effects of adrenaline, sweat, fear and violent movement on the part of the opponent I don't see it stopping him.

The point is all other things won't be equal. Karate is not a battlefield art, its civil defence, not necessarily designed with the trained opponent in mind. Thats not to say it can't be adapted, but in any case are you saying that if we both (me and my 240lb opponent) train pressure points as well i can't take him down? A 240 pound man is a different man to a 140 pound man. Thus they train and fight differently. Its not a proportional increase in size, and thus direct comparisons are flawed.

I've been taught to strike certain points/targets, karate is in part a percussive martial art. We strike certain targets - described in the Bubishi, however i'm less than certain that karate was ever intended to be a touching and/or rubbing art.

It is a sweeping generalisation that most fights start with a push. And frankly to call punching a more aggressive form of fighting that is 'rare' is naive to my way of thinking. Fights are 'aggressive' by their nature, all sorts of things do and can happen. In my experience if someone wants to fight you they want to hurt you badly. They don't walk up to you and give you a little push and see what happens next. Punching, kicking, pushing, shoving, whatever, you have to respond with a greater level of violence if you want to survive, its not nice, but thats how it is. If someone shoves me hard and raises their fist i'm well within my rights to punch him in the throat. If I fear for my life then I'm entitled to defend it with force. The law will require a test of reasonableness, and so will my conscience, but I'd rather satisfy the latter and stay alive and well then satisfy the former and end up dead or damaged.

Your attitude is very admirable and I agree with your principles, but not if it means greater risk to my person, and I believe this touching and rubbing response to a motivated aggressor does. If someone attacks me with serious intent, then hes going down if its withing the sphere of my ability.


Your mall experience is very impressive and its great that your response was so proportional, but was this man really trying to hurt you/kill you? or just intimidate you/

Why stop posting, there is a lot of disagreement here, but we are covering new ground and there is no malice in anyones words. I am interested in your responses and agree that its possible for two contasting opinions to exist without anyone throwing the toys out of the pram.



[This message has been edited by Yoseikan Student (edited 06-05-2003).]

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#107976 - 06/05/03 07:57 AM Re: How the "death touch" works
York Karate Offline
Member

Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 132
Loc: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
Force = mass (size) x velocity

Given your last post more later

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#107977 - 06/05/03 10:59 AM Re: How the "death touch" works
Kempoman Offline
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Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
Glad to see theres no moderation needed here.

My humble thoughts on the matter...

Adding points to your arsenal is good. Is it vital...no. The points work, but not all of them they way you think they should. There are several key points that work all of the time. The theory (five element, that is) falls apart for KO's when you get outside of these points, but making up new KO's is not what you should be focused on. These points however are the ones that are most acessable during a fight. Whether standing up, sitting down or on your back, pressure point enhance your techniques.

The problem is that most don't know the activation, angle or direction to apply the force and you can't without begin shown.

Instead of yelling yeah hunh, unh-unh back and forth and getting nowhere here's an example for the skeptic crowd to try...(JohnL I know you have an open mind and I would love to here your comments on this after trying)

Everyone is has seen police officers try to bring suspects to the ground using an arm bar. Usually a big fiasco involving a ver non-compliant suspect and a few uncoorinated efforts trying to bring the guy to the ground. Now the problem is not with the tecnique itself (an ambar is a vaild technique), the problem is in the application. The officers are using a pressure point, TW-11 to be exact, just not using it properly. So here's the test

Grab uke's arm at the wrist and then apply arm bar straight force just above the elbow (in the depression) and push. Then try it again this time with a back and forth rubbing motion that goes in the direction of shoulder-hand, hand-shoulder. The rub should encompass about 1 to 1-1/2 inches long. Use the knuckles that you would to knock on someones door. Later you can modify it to use the forearm.

Everyone try this and then let's discuss!

Scott

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#107978 - 06/05/03 12:41 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Kempoman, Oh Great Moderator [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

"The problem is that most don't know the activation, angle or direction to apply the force and you can't without begin shown."

I agree, and this is one of the main differences between hitting a pressure point and poking someone in the eye.

When I poke someone in the eye I do so with a group of fingers so I don't have to be too accurate. In addition I don't have to worry about angle and direction, any will work and give the desired result.

Your test technique.
"Grab uke's arm at the wrist and then apply arm bar straight force just above the elbow (in the depression) and push. Then try it again this time with a back and forth rubbing motion that goes in the direction of shoulder-hand, hand-shoulder. The rub should encompass about 1 to 1-1/2 inches long. Use the knuckles that you would to knock on someones door. Later you can modify it to use the forearm."

Done this one extensively. Yes there is a pressure point there, and yes iy hurts. Personally I prefer to use the boney protrusion on the outside of my wrist. (On a scale of 1-10, touching it 0, rubbing it 4, hitting it hard 8)

The problem is that to rub it as you describe (or hit it), you have to first get into grappling range, get hold of the other guys arm, twist the arm to position the arm to expose the pressure point, and then apply the technique.

Don't get me wrong, I have studied the use of pressure points for a number of years and use them regularly, however the objection I have is when they are put forward as an alternative to a solid MA background. I believe that to say that they are an equalizer is wrong. Without a good background in Judo, or other manipulating skill, you will never get to expose the pressure point you have identified.

Pressure points can and should be examined in detail but are not a substitute for the basic skills. They can add to your arsenal but are in no way the equalizer suggested.
JohnL

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#107979 - 06/05/03 01:53 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
York Karate Offline
Member

Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 132
Loc: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
I must not be articulating my concepts very well.

I have said repeatedly that you should integrate Kyusho Jitsu into your base style; this thus assumes one has a base style. I have also stated that “foundation skills” i.e. biomechanics, breathing, stance, focus and so on are critical to any and all arts. I teach a class 2 a week dedicated just to foundation skills. I stress this in every class and seminar I teach.

Kyusho Jitsu (Pressure points) is like any other martial arts system it requires training.
I teach what I call
M - method of activation
A – angle of attack
D – direction of attack
E – effect or outcome of attack

I take techniques and applications directly from basics and kata and we work these with all the “Foundation Skills” and add Kyusho Jistu to enhance them. Working with the core skills that we use every class makes it simple and easy to add the next level because I believe every single basic is a Kyusho technique.

5 Element theory is just one theory to work with PP, it is the first one I teach and very important to understand and be able to apply especially when working out bunaki for kata. However you also have diurnal cycle Yin Yang theory etc.

I have said nothing against any delivery system – I have said however that blunt force trauma is the lowest common denominator and it is. People go on about force and how a 130-pound person can generate enough force to handle a 240 pound person. Sorry but force = mass (size) x velocity, so size does matter when dealing with the simple strikes and kicks of our base systems.

Pressure points are not hard to hit at all and clothing is not an issue. I hit through clothing all the time, in fact at seminars I hit through a bullet-proof vest just to make the point.

I again will repeat that police officers tell me most confrontations start from pushing and grapping and in most cases the attack is by someone you know. Brutal street attacks by total strangers are very rare. So I think you need to be able to respond appropriately and that is seldom going to be poking someone’s eyes outs. You need to be able to defend yourself humanely and pressure points allow this where blunt force trauma does not.

Pressure points enhance your base art and need to be studied like any art.
They are the equalizer to over come size and strength I have seen it, I have had students tell me their real world experiences and it can easily be demonstrated.

In respect to TW 11 I teach it to everyone (and TW12 as well, which is the hit point) TW 11 will only really work with a rub and when done correctly will drop your attacker like a brick.
I teach a core set of points you can see this by going here
http://www.yorkkarate.com/Articles/Kyusho%20Jitsu%20Program%20Student%20Syllabus.pdf


Have a great day

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#107980 - 06/06/03 11:19 AM Re: How the "death touch" works
Yoseikan Student Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: UK
Have you ever felt, that in teaching humane defence, you are in any way sacrificing the effectiveness of that defence?

Many emphasise the necessity of single-mindedness of no-mind with pure focus on the task in hand. Would you accept that in trying to defend yourself humanely you are in danger of being in two minds or indirect in your method?

[This message has been edited by Yoseikan Student (edited 06-06-2003).]

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#107981 - 06/06/03 11:44 AM Re: How the "death touch" works
York Karate Offline
Member

Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 132
Loc: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
Not at all - the calmer I am the more focused I am able to be.

I will always try and first defuse a situation secondly handled it humanly and finally use lethal force.

Emotion plays a major part in your ability to defend yourself on several levels.

I won’t discuss emotion in respect to Kyusho however at the simplest level when you get angry you give up control and as a result your skill level decreases.

Do not confuse my willingness to try and avoid a situation with my inability either emotional or from a skill perspective to do what is necessary based on the situation. I simply want my response to be situational and proportional.

I have been in a number of confrontations in my life because of age, location and occupation. I have hurt people when the situation required that I do so.
I am not proud of that fact; I would rather have controlled the situation so excessive force was not required. That is one reason I am so pleased to have found pressure points – they help me in meeting this goal.

I should also point out from a teaching perspective most people find the idea of using blunt force trauma and force based response difficult not just physically but mentally. I work very hard to help people understand they are worth defending and teach the levels of response for example school children and teens need to deal with the zero tolerance rule in school. You need to help them deal with this and establish a methodology to handle bullying etc that does not rely on strikes. However sometimes physical conflict cannot be avoided and you need to teach staged response here as well, both because of the legal and emotional issues that must be considered. Providing people effective humane skills that work helps over come this problem.

Kyusho Jistu (Pressure point fighting) meets this criteria I can use them humanely or step them up to a point where they are lethal as required.

I have been attacked and used PP to defend myself

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#107982 - 06/06/03 12:52 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Originally posted by York Karate:

"I should also point out from a teaching perspective most people find the idea of using blunt force trauma and force based response difficult not just physically but mentally."

An important point YK, I have found the same.
What I have also found however, is that when the training becomes harder and more difficult, these are the first people to stop their MA training. They then reappear 3 months later saying that they have discovered a new and easier way to defend themselves. They then explain how they have attended seminars on PP's and that they no longer need to train in a MA.

I have then asked them to demonstrate their new found abilities. Without exception they have all failed miserably.

I don't blame them, it's not their fault. They have learnt a little of what it takes to defend yourself, didn't like what it takes and went in search of an easy fix.

I know you say that PP fighting is no good without a good base delivery system (that we agree on) but I have seen too many people duped by PP masters(?) who have promised them the easy fix for self defence that requires minimal effort. They are then sent out into the real world with enough false confidence to get into serious trouble.

JohnL

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#107983 - 06/06/03 01:13 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
York Karate Offline
Member

Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 132
Loc: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
I can only speak for my school and to some extent the DKI schools I know. This does not happen. DKI schools all have a strong foundation in a base art and focus on foundation skills over and over and over. Kyusho is the icing on the cake that enhances the base art and makes it truly effective.

I have seen some “programs” (I won’t name them but some start with a R others with a C ) that teach self defence including pressure point based self defence and frankly I agree they do not work. I had a major issue with the university my dojo was at over this and in the end we left the campus because the security service was teaching one of these flavour of the month, well marketed self-defence programs. The university staff with no martial arts background took a whole 40 hours of training and then the were ready to teach and train people in just one weekend to defend themselves. This is both foolish and dangerous

You can’t take a weekend course or a weeklong and become a qualified instructor.
Students can’t take a 2-day or even an 8-week course and know how to defend themselves regardless of the art they are training in.

Anything worth learning is worth learning right and frankly if your investing in self defence put at least as much effort into it you would some other hobby like baseball. Martial arts and self-defence take extensive training and dedication.

You didn’t learn to walk with just 40 hours of effort, you aren’t going to learn a real self defence program in that amount of time.

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#107984 - 08/01/03 12:32 AM Re: How the "death touch" works
bushido Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/01/03
Posts: 6
I have worked with some very large and violent individuals in my career. I don't doubt that pressure points can be effective in some cases. However how do those of you who are students of pressure point arts feel about pressure point effectiveness on an attacker who is high on narcotics? It has been my experience that these drugs not only nullify pressure point (pain) receptors, but can also contribute to high tolerances for physical trauma. I also study in armed Martial arts (guns), and know for a fact that it is possible for a human being to live up to 14 seconds from a direct gunshot to the heart. (Hunters will attest to this.)

That being said, I believe though there is some validity to Pressure Point fighting, but in no uncertain terms should anyone believe that it is the end all to any confrontation. (I don't believe that has been said here...but for the sake of the novice who may come upon this site, I state this.)

I know of individuals who have been shot, stabbed, or otherwise "mortally wounded" who have been able to continue their assault..and have killed even after they themselves were mortally wounded. Please, please use caution when placing your faith in ANY technique (even guns), that said technique will guarantee you the victory.

ALWAYS HAVE A BACK UP PLAN.

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#107985 - 08/01/03 03:44 AM Re: How the "death touch" works
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
If you shoot a deer, and it still is standing, push the bolt back and foward and shoot again!

My back up plan - keep on hitting or run.

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#107986 - 09/02/03 10:38 AM Re: How the "death touch" works
Syrio Offline
Member

Registered: 09/02/03
Posts: 74
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kempoman:
BTW I don't use them anymore myself, I have moved on to Xingyiquan which makes the whole body a pressure point [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

Scott[/QUOTE]

Amen.

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#107987 - 09/22/03 11:19 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
drhess Offline
Stranger

Registered: 09/22/03
Posts: 2
Loc: USA
I guess the way I'm looking at pressure points is that the term is a bit loosey-goosey. If the definition is that it is a pressure point if it works, then we haven't gotten very far. I assume that there are several parts to the general field of Chin Na: applying pressure to take mechanical advantage of human anatomy (arm bar), applying pressure to nerve points or body parts to create pain (hitting a nerve or turing a wrist lock from advantage to pain), rendering a person unconscious or incapable of responding through a strike or severity of pain that leads to submission, blackout, etc.

Does this help? I'm new to the field, but just trying to get a grasp on some categories.

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#107988 - 09/23/03 02:31 AM Re: How the "death touch" works
exceptionist 2 Offline
one arm napalm punch

Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 438
Loc: Kanagawa Tokyo, Japan
My thoughts:
Dim Mak- using an applied force strike or otherwise to disrupt the positive path of enrgy flow into a more negative flow as to cause the catamination of healthy chi equaling death eventually or very near to it.
I also understand that one has to know the proper methods of striking as well as the bodies cycle of key points which change with the seasons according to the individual birth date,skill level of the intended target. Since usually some knowlege or applicational study into Chin-na or Shiatsu,Chi gung, or varios internal systems or anything related to the path of energy throughout certain meridians can be used to lengthen ones natural life, can also be manipulated to shorten it.

the exception

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#107989 - 09/24/03 11:30 AM Re: How the "death touch" works
kempocos Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 516
Loc: flemington,nj,usa
A major issue learning these techniques is remebering when the concepts were developed.
The concepts were formed to explian why pain and death occured before science evolved to the levels of today. To understand the ideas of the OLD WAYS as some put it you cannot expect to explain them useing a modern mindset. This is why many have trouble accepting CHI, MERIDIANS, 5 ELEMENTS. They do not make sense how they present them selves in modern science. If you train with
a teacher such as Sieyu Oyata, Who is the true person to bring this to modern Karate dojos. They will not bring modern science into it because it will not make sense if looked at from a western viepoint. Many today try to mix TCM with Modern western medicne and this causes more confusion.

This is just my opinion

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#107990 - 09/24/03 08:03 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
I want a MWM expanation. To say this cannot be done is silly. Why not.

To be a smart ass, "confusion is the beginning of clarity"

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#107991 - 09/25/03 07:48 AM Re: How the "death touch" works
kempocos Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 516
Loc: flemington,nj,usa
joesixpack -"I want a MWM expanation. To say this cannot be done is silly. Why not.
To be a smart ass, "confusion is the beginning of clarity"

The view points of western medicine denies the exsistance of chi, meridians and such. So to mix the TCM and MWM explantions will not make any sense. You can explain a techniques result in both TCM and MWM terms, however to mix the explantion in both terms would leave open ends in the information.

As a wise ass would say.
If you do not speak any spanish, and you hear some speaking and every third word is in spanish , do you really know what they are saying.

As always IMHO

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#107992 - 01/12/04 07:48 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
pod3 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/11/04
Posts: 62
Yes, has anyone here developed a clear perception of energy before finding it in a body?!!

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#107993 - 01/21/04 03:28 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
lungqino111 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/18/04
Posts: 14
Loc: ireland
hello everyone,

enjoying the debate on "dim Mak".
my understanding is that in "nei-ja" (internal) systems chi usually refers to blood circulation or the respiratory system. "jing" or focused power refers to "li" or strength applied correctly in the right direction.
Dim Mak or "spotting" striking pressure points, closing circulation or appling pressure to cause pain and involentary reaction are mentioned a lot in internal styles. In tai chi chuan a lot of enphasis is placed on relaxation, (a misconception about this has created a lot of tu-fu chuan schools all yin and no yang) , relaxation while adhering to the opponent allows our arms to naturally slide, control and find our opponents weak points as the slide will be stopped at a bump-joint and this is where nerve plexuses and arteries-veins are most exposed. Is this what someone meant about rubbing lightly? as once they are found if the opponent has any "gung" or is reasonably tough, force will need to be used and used in the right direction! which is the crux isn't it and here I agree with the necessity of a good delivery system. its one thing to hit a half blind staggering drunk quite another to land an attack on a well trained uncooperative opponent. someone once said "art is the ability of an external object to engender a specific emotional response in the observer. having fought in various international san-shou comps over the last 3 years i have come to believe that martial art is the ability through external movements or eye techniques to engerder a certain physical responses in the opponent. The science is power, conditioning etc, we can all break boards! landing these attacks is the key.
Iknow what training it takes (conditioning and learning how to faint and draw UNDER PRESSURE) just to land a good punch, thats a large weapon on a large target, how the hell someone with basic training is expected to pull off dim mak techniques is beyond me.
Finally and old expression says - once we have fists we use nothing else", grabbing i believe is low level, adherance can be achieved & locks etc with the fore arms. After all if you grab me you're one arm short and i dont have to grab you, also you'll need the time to let go if you wish to use that hand again!

Dim Mak - Dim or what?

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#107994 - 05/17/04 11:55 AM Re: How the "death touch" works
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi Guy and Gals,
Good debate, strength vs. skill. I might just add that after 35 years in Combat Jujitsu and now at the ripe old age of 55 with many broken bones over the years, that strength fades but knowledge and skill remains.
I personally believe in power strikes with knowledge of where and how they are best used and in what situation (be it a rub or a hit). I also believe that knowledge to deescalate a situation, not power is your best strike ( I am aware that youth or ego will not agree with this). To develop only one area of skill is to limit your potential. A student of MA, whatever style one studies, is also about growth as a student of the style as well as a person..........never stop learning and never turn away knowledge when it comes knocking at your door. If your approach is limited by your ego, then your journey will unfortunately take much, much longer. What ever your rank is, remain humble to the vast knowledge in MA and never stop being a student.

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#107995 - 07/10/04 05:38 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
Anonymous
Unregistered


I really don't understand why the "DEATH TOUCH" has to be so mysterious and tip-toed around all the time.
Out of respect to this forum (not to mention the fact that I guess ANYTHING is possible.....well not really, but that saying allways sounds nice), I will assume that this lethal technique exists, why is it so hush-hush??
It would seem to some people I suppose that the deadly nature of the art itself would explain it's need to lurk in the shadows so to speak, but really, I have been training & teaching chokes and neck-cranks (my specialty if I do say so myself. For some reason leverage against the neck has always come easier to me than most other forms of submission) for years, both of which if taken too far can be deadly (many neck locks have to be applied with care when sparring because if applied explosively enough, it's obvious to all involved that the dislocation of the spine can easily occur).
Why is the infamous "DEATH TOUCH" any different. I sure have my own theory, but I welcome any and all thought on this subject as it fascinates me (much in the way I as an Agnostic am totally fascinated by Religion and ESPECIALLY Faith).

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#107996 - 07/10/04 05:49 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
I agree, I just want to seperate the claptrap from the actual stuff that can be explained by science - for example, the application of the knifehand strike I described to you REALLY does lower your blood pressure, then quickly raises it. In short, your breain can't take it and you become KO'd.

Given that some boxers die from brain concussion, I don't think that "the death touch" is that mystical. Getting a blood clot and dying seems "normal". Training for the optimal target, power and draconian hand conditiong seem overzealous though when the tech itself won't help you win a fight - being faster and being able to turn an opponents mistake into an advantage - (lock, choke, takedown, KO set up) and then finish them seems to be more useful.

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#107997 - 08/18/04 07:30 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
Anonymous
Unregistered


Dim mak is another name for pressure point striking but there are certain moves that can kill later. This type of kill is delayed and what i have been taught is about cycle time and posture and energy are all relative to this way of kill. Hit all points you can and hit one that connects them and the body will have trouble even if someone survives it .

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#107998 - 08/20/04 02:11 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
Anonymous
Unregistered


Scott wrote:

The points run along the external trajectories of the meridians, there is also an internal trajectory as well it is using the external to get to the internal pathways that can cause these types of effects.

=================

Easy there Scott! Starting to give away the farm there! <grin!>

I am back up in running in GA. Drop me a line when you get the chance.

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#107999 - 12/30/04 06:06 AM Re: How the "death touch" works
Anonymous
Unregistered


The notion of the 'death touch' is UTTER RUBBISH. Unless of course you're not a martial artist, but a member of a suicide/flagellant cult. There are however more efficient, less drawn out ways to kill yourself. *Sigh* What happened to the good old fashioned overdose???

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#108000 - 01/05/05 07:42 AM Re: How the "death touch" works
Anonymous
Unregistered


alrighty
say this chick walks in da dark alley this punk comes up to her confident in her dim sim skills she contiunes walking slowly he catches up to her she turns around to comfrot him then relising that the guy intended to be agresive she throws at him one of her death touches she misses/too lil power/wrong angle/it dont frecking work she gets hammered/raped/killed. now why would anyone relay their life on something as **** as something that havent been tested that havent be proven and that have a high chance of failing futher more it provids the ppl that know lil about them a false sense of securaty she was wasting time beliving in her own skills while she could have been RUNING then she confroted the guy with things that might not work while she could have goten a brocken beer bottle/piece of wood/random rubbish from the ground and smashed/stabed the bastard to death
and da ppl that were arguing about strenght and dim sims been the most important factor in a fight ur both wrong pychological training is the most important the skills that keep ur brains working in a dangerous situation like improvasing weapons controling fear and avoiding tunnel vission(very hard) is so much more better than streght and some much more better than dim sims there have been MA masters that are betten up but street punks because they were jumped and been used to a fair fight in the arena they couldnt defend themselves properly with 2 guys kicking them while their on da ground

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#108001 - 01/05/05 06:20 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
Anonymous
Unregistered


Ever think hitting someone with a broken bottle may not work either?

I train in some very basic weapon defenses. What's to say a determined attacker with these skills won't survive.

I don't think you really know much more about pressure point fighting than people who think it's a magic bullet.

When I punch to the head, it may not work either. What do I do? Keep on attacking and evading for one thing, on the other hand, I try to use techniques which will quickly take out my attacker.

If it's tornado throw, so be it. A neck crank ditto.

The same for a PP KO like the application of an upper block as striking the fire point on the forearm and striking the vargas nerve.

This is very simple and works on anyone, and creates anatomically vulnerable positions (i.e, head foward, body bent over). From here, you can finish with a multitude of PP or non PP attacks, such as a gullotine choke, throwing the body around the head, etc....taking then down into a figure four choke or a knee to the back etc..

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#108002 - 01/07/05 09:10 AM Re: How the "death touch" works
Anonymous
Unregistered


hi i live in laval a city in the province of quebec canada and was wandering if there is a school or a place where i can buy books so i can learn dim mak or naytihng concerning the death touch

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#108003 - 01/07/05 11:13 AM Re: How the "death touch" works
Anonymous
Unregistered


ive done aibt of research and found some interesting things concerning the death touch nad PP http://www.funkydragon.com/bushi/bubushi.html

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#108004 - 01/08/05 06:12 AM Re: How the "death touch" works
Anonymous
Unregistered


i may have missed the point but i believe we all know some pressure point stuff and may not be aware of it. i remember as a kid beofre knowing much about ma that when mucking about we would punch each other on the arms and legs to the effect of "dead arm" or "dead leg syndrome. in hindsight we were all hitting pressure point to get that effect. next time you do a low roundhouse kick to the thighs or see one in k-1 or ufc that pressure point are being aimed for and if a strike can 'knock out' a limb there muct be a point that could do taht to a person. an elbow strike to the back of the neck could knock someone out..

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#108005 - 01/08/05 08:17 AM Re: How the "death touch" works
Anonymous
Unregistered


when i was a kid me and my mates used tohit each other and give 'dead' arms and legs. when you hit with a low kick to the thighs pressure points are being aimed for to knock the limb out and if you do an elbow strike to the back of the neck your opponent will go out light a like. i am assuming the death touch will be something along these lines. but we know that pressure points will be useful in a fight. a low kick results in many tko's in muay thai.

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#108006 - 02/04/05 10:17 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi everyone, I just thought I'd drop a reply to this thread, it seems interesting. But it is my understanding that the deadly blow to the pressure points is made when 3 or more pressure points are struck at once, sending the blood at all 3 points back to the heart at once (the pressure points could be in the wrist for example), this overloads the heart and kills the person... This is just what i have been told

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#108007 - 02/05/05 09:13 AM Re: How the "death touch" works
Anonymous
Unregistered


Another late join in the topic..this is in reply to everyone fussing about 'touching or rubbing PPs' earlier in the topic.
1. Touching or rubbing pressure points DO work, but I wouldn't trust just this in a real self-defense situation. As JohnL said, this is best used in seminars. I'd much rather have to seriously injure the attacker by using pressure points such as TW-17 or GB-31 (TW-17 can dislocate the jaw and GB-31...obviously they're not gonna be using their leg for a while.) than get seriously injured myself due to ill-will against using force in PPs.
2. There's a story told at our dojo every now and again about a girl that was trained here going to Florida. Apparently, a mugger thought he could easily over-power her and grabbed her purse. She used a technique that broke his arm, but he couldn't let go of the purse, so she did it again. The guy was screaming in pain but still could not let go of the purse. The police were shocked :-. Maybe it was sheer luck, but for whatever reason, the PP training did pay off.
I guess the point to #2 is to say that a smaller people can successfully defend themselves against an attacker if they know what they're doing. I wouldn't tell a white belt that he/she could take anyone on the street, but once they advance to around blue/green belt, I don't really think they're at a bad disadvantage if their attacker is more powerful than themselves, at least they're not if they've paid attention in class [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]. Still, the person may or may not have the abilities to execute any technique that may stop the attacker. Every situation is different as is every person and every person's skill level. Therefore, you really can't say whether a person that's been training with PPs can use them effectively. It all depends on the skill and mentality of the person.

[This message has been edited by ShotokanJujutsu (edited 02-05-2005).]

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#108008 - 02/05/05 11:27 AM Re: How the "death touch" works
Anonymous
Unregistered


hi everyone i am new here and i really like the subject. I think it all depends on the blow that is used and location and time of day not because of anything magical but body functions are different at night and day. In the morning we get up and the first thing we do is use the bathroom ,thus the body laying for hours has been working.

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#108009 - 02/05/05 12:54 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
Anonymous
Unregistered


I will pay 50$ to anyone who can knock me out by rubbing a point on my body. Seriously.

My pressure points get rubbed all the time...AND I LIKE IT!


Now, seriously, everyone's still avoiding the question: If these points are easy to use and can incapacitate a man, why aren't they being used in NHB competition?
No "too deadly" BS please.

We have PP not working on video now. Why persist in this wrongheaded belief?

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#108010 - 02/07/05 03:03 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
Anonymous
Unregistered


OK...first of all...I have to say ahead of time to the moderators that I am sorry for this post. I know it is going to be politically incorrect, I know I am going to step on some toes, I know I am going to use strong language, etc. However, I am really tired of reading messages from people ignorant of the topic that make stupid comments and have extremely faulty logic (note to the reader: I am not lumping everyone mentioned in my response here into all of these groups or any of these group...I am speaking in general terms here at this point). So, I am sorry.

First point to deal with...doing KO's can kill you or cause physical harm.

Sure it can...if that is what you are aiming to do! If they didn't, then why would we use them? But in the context of training and/or seminars, this is getting to the point of being stupid. Let's look at some facts:

#1. When it comes to vital or pressure points, the ones located on the main meridians (jingmai or keiraku) number 309.

#2. Since the main meridians of the body are bilateral (both sides of the body), that brings the number of points to 618.

#3. If we add the points on the Governing Vessel (GV) and Conception Vessel (CV), that brings the total to 670 (please not that of the extraordinary vessels, only the GV and CV have unique points that are not already a part of an already established meridian system).

#4. While there are a variety of different schools that use a different number of "extra points" (jingwai xue in Chinese and refer to points that are not located on a meridian or extraordinary vessel), one number that is safe to use that all could agree upon is 48. Adding those, we come to a grand total of 718 points on the human body.

With that number of 718 established, let's look at every day life and just a couple of examples and apply some logic:

#1. How many times when a kid did you have friends (or otherwise) punch you as hard as the could mid-arm...or punch or knee you as hard as possible mid-thigh?

#2. How many of you player football as a youngster or teenager?

#3. How many of you boxed as a youngster?

#4. How many of you have ever bumped your head HARD on something when standing up?

#5. How many of you have ever bumped your leg(s) HARD at a desk or a table?

#6. How many of you have ever run into something HARD?

#7. The list could go on and on and on....

So...look at those few examples. Then, total up a conservative estimate of the number of times that each has happened. A conservative estimate (based upon your age of course) is tens of thousands easily and for some of us it would run into the hundreds of thousands. Now couple this with the fact that we have established that there are over 700 vital points on the human body. Are you going to tell me that the VAST MAJORITY of these incidents don't involve these points? Hell, shaking hands with someone covers at least 8 at one time. What are the odds that you receive the tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of "attacks" to vital points and yet, you are still alive and reading my message? Obviously, because there is something more to utilizing these vital points other than hitting then with "x" amount of force or pressure. If this were not the case, then most folks would never make it out of early childhood or adolescence. One of the points to consider here is that the energetic system of the body is specifically designed to deal with such instances where an "accidental" use of vital points does occur and to correct it almost an instant. It has to.

So carry this forward in your martials arts training that uses vital points...when was the last time you ever saw anyone killed using vital points? I'd likely say never. As long as you or your training partner are not being overly stupid in how you apply vital points, then there is generally nothing to worry about. The energetic system of the body is going to correct itself with no problems. There are a few exceptions to this general rule of thumb, but the vast majority of them involve common sense. And, this is why you hear so many folks that have actual experience in the use and in the teaching the use of vital points say that you need instruction from a "professional". Hell, even within the field of acupuncture, some points are contr-indicated (meaning don't use them...some are the type you do not use period and some are based on certain conditions or situations). Why would we not expect the same to be true when using them in a combative situation?
====================================================
Second....the "theory" that utilizing 3 or 5 points on a person at the same time will cause a KO (usually what I have seen regarding using 3 points) or death (usually what I have seen regarding 5 points) to an individual.

For those of you that follow the teachings of George Dillman and/or his instructors I am sorry...but this MYTH came from them and is total CRAP. Period. End of story. Please provide me proof or documentation from any Chinese medical text that this is the case. Or simply explain to me the logic using the theories and principles of Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) that this is the case. You can't because it does not exist and it cannot be done. I have dealt with this topic on this forum and many others on numerous occasions. Never once has anyone taken me up on this. Why? Two reasons...the first because they don't know enough about TCM in the first place. Second, because their instructor or their instructor's instructor said it so it has to be true and they researched it not one bit.

Go grab a TCM point reference and see how may points are "activated" in a simple handshake. Over 5. Go see how many points are "activated" in a simple wrist grab. Over 5. Go see how many points are activated in a slap to the face. Over 5. When was the last time you saw someone killed or seriously injured in any way, shape or form from any of these?

Again, my offer stands...prove to me with a cited reference to a written work or use your own knowledge of TCM and prove that this works. If you cannot or will not do this, then please keep your mouth shut as spouting off with crap like this only makes the lives of those of us that work with vital points for real that much more difficult. Is that too much to ask of you?
==================================================
Third.....does pressing or rubbing points work.

This one is so silly I really wanted to bang my head on my desk in disgust. Let's look at it from a couple of different angles or perspectives, shall we?

First of all, have any of you ever heard of traditional Chinese massage? There are a couple of different schools. One is called Tuina and it means PUSHING and GRASPING. The other main schools is called Anmo and it means PRESSING and RUBBING. Gee...PUSHING and GRASPING and PRESSING and RUBBING. And both of these schools are based upon the throeires and principles of TCM and utilize the exact same points. So, we either have to throw out tuina and Anmo as working healing methods or we have to say that it works for just that reason...that it is a healing method. But, so is acupuncture. So, if we can "reverse engineer" (for lack of a better term) acupuncture to be able to utilize it as an adjunct to our combative training then why can't the same be said of Tuina and Anmo? It can and it is.

Some points respond better to rubbing or vibration and some respond better to striking. TW-10 and TW-11 on the arm above the elbow are prime examples of this. TW-10 responds much better to a rub and is a release point for the elbow joint. TW-11 (slightly further up the arm) responds much better to a strike than it does a rub or vibration. The Wood/Earth crossing on the torso is another point that respoinds well to a rub or a vibration. Are all of these "rubs" going to be combatively effective? No. Just like not all 700+ vital points on the body are effectively accessed in a combative situation. some can and should be used to prove a point in a seminar or teaching situation. Some are going to be more readily available in a grappling or ground fighting situation. All you have to do is have a small bit of knowledge and combine that with a bit of common sense and quit throwing out the baby with the bath water because you cannot immediately figure out the use or purpose. Remember...not all points are created equal! When you go to see an acupuncturist, some points are needled more deeply, some more shallow. Some points require different heads on the needles. Some require a tapping on the top of the needled once inserted to get the desired effect. Some require the needle to be twirlled in a particular direction after inserted. The same is true of using them in a combative sense. Even western medical science tells us that rubbing or vibrating ST-9 gets a different result than striking it. And that takes us into the area of local anatomy...and if you have not done enough research there to figure out why you get different results, then shame on you!
=================================================
Fourth.....time of day. In regards to actually wanting to kill someone, this is probably the most correct of incorrect statements I have seen in regards to this thread. Yes, as the Bubishi clearly indicates, there are shichen (a bi-hourly unit of measurement) points that can be used to cause death. But, it not simply a matter of hitting those specific points. There is much more to it than that to make it work. However, when it comes to general usage of points, the time of day is probably going to be an over all factor of about .01% of getting the desired effect. Outside of following what the Bubishi and other documents are trying to teach on the shichen points, it is just not that important. When talking about healing, that is different....but not for "general hurting".
===================================================
Fifth and lastly comes the uninformed and illogical comments by "Hedgehogey". Let's deal with those.

First, why don't we see vital points used in NHB fighting? They are...all of the time...but you just cannot see it because you don't know what it is that you are seeing. If you think me wrong, here is a quote off of Dan "The Beast" Severn's web page (http://www.the-beast.com)...here is what he provides training in:

"You've seen him on TV, Now you have a chance to train with the 'the Beast' in person at his private training facility. Most altercations if not ceased within the first kick or punch results in a grappling situation. Now is your chance to expand your arsenal with proven submission holds, chokes, pressure points and grappling techniques from a man that has defeated some of the most talented and feared competitors in the world."

Wow...imagine that! One of the most prolific champions in NHB fighting teaches the use of PRESSURE POINTS. Interesting, neh? But I guess he has never used them in a NHB fight nor trained anyone else to. Nah! He would just use them else where...not in a NHB fight because if he or others did we would be able to see it used. Yeah...right....

Also....get a fighter's applicaiton from the UFC. Don't go by the rules listed on their website that the Nevada Boxing Commission made them sign off on. Go by the copy that you actually get as a part of the application and that you have to sign and agree to. Unless it has changed since the last time I saw a copy, then you will be really, really surprised to find out what is illegal to use in their fights. One guess as to what it is...

Second...let's look at the comment about how we have a video that shows vital points not working. Boy...you have got some great evidence there. Simply because you have a video showing one case where it did not work, then none of it works. Let's apply your logic to the following:

1. I have video footage of a kumite match where a guy charged in and got caught full force with a front kick to the nose. Caught in the sense that it just about crushed the nose entirely and had to be lifted up with a pencil and have tissues stuffed into it so the guy could continue. But, continue he did. And the kick did not drop this guy. While the kicker got the point, the kickee kept right on charging and tagged the guy with a reverse punch to the solar plexus to drop him. But, in using your logic we have to throw out all front kicks or at least those targeted to the nose because in this one case it did not work.

2. Several years ago, I attended a college football game between Baylor and San Jose State University (you kow it was several years ago as Baylor actually had a good team then). Baylor was close to scoring the touchdown and the quarterback at the time got sacked hard...and I do mean HARD. Since this was several years ago and helmet to helmet contact (especially with a QB) is not as verbotten as it is now, he literally got his bell rung. He was given a concussion. After the game we came to find out that he remembers nothing past being hit then until half way into the halftime. But, even in this condition he was able to get up, go to the huddle, receive the play from the sideline, repeat the play to the team and then execute it. And the play that he executed was a quarterback keeper around the left side to score. So, using the wonderful logic from Hedgehogey, we have to throw out all contact to the quarterback as an attempt to stop him from executing offensive plays because we have this one incident where it did not work.

3. We also have the case of a knife wielding man who was shot 3 times in the chest with a .38 by a policeman as he (the perp) was rushing him (the police officer). The guy died, but not before he was able to still get to the cop and kill him with the knife by stabbing and slashing him repeatedly. So, again using the logic of Hedgehogey we have to throw out the use of deadly force by police against knife wielding opponents because we have this one documented case where it did not work. Obviously, the best option for police in this case is to keep their weapons holstered and run the opposite directions.

Are you beginning to get my point here? I certainly hope so. It is just plain stupid to think that because you have a case where something does not work it will never work (and for the PC police, note that I did not call any individual stupid here...I said it is stupid to think that...one can have a stupid thought, right?). If you had even the slightest of clues as to what it is that you are talking about, not only would you know that your logic is flawed at it's core but you would also know that there are a variety of different reasons why vital points in a particular case (especially not a truly combative situation where you do not care about the health of your attacker after the usage) do not or will not work. And if you'd like to, I would be happy to discuss them in extreme detail with you (Hedgehogey specifically) or anyone else.

But, what you have done here(besides the flawed logic) is expressed a complete lack of knowledge and understanding of the subject matter. Hedgehogey...what is your background with vital points? With whom have you trained and for how long? Usually, I find comments such as yours coming from someone that has maybe read a book, maybe seen a video or two or at most been to a single hands on seminar. So, I will be more than happy to share my keizu (lineage) with you...how about you tell me yours?
==================================================

OK...I am done and will get off my soapbox for the moment...I am sorry for the outburst and writing a mini version of War and Peace on the topic. But, I just reached a breaking point today with what I was reading. Newbies looking for information come here and get wrong information and others would like to talk as experts and don't have the credentials to do so. Perhaps I woke up on the wrong side of the bed...maybe this helped someone. Either way, I feel better now! <grin!>

Michael

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#108011 - 02/07/05 10:44 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]
First, why don't we see vital points used in NHB fighting? They are...all of the time...but you just cannot see it because you don't know what it is that you are seeing. [/QUOTE]

Then enlighten me. Show me a spot struck in a specific MMA fight that does not already have an MWM explanation.

[QUOTE]I
Wow...imagine that! One of the most prolific champions in NHB fighting teaches the use of PRESSURE POINTS. Interesting, neh? But I guess he has never used them in a NHB fight nor trained anyone else to. Nah! He would just use them else where...not in a NHB fight because if he or others did we would be able to see it used. Yeah...right....[/QUOTE]

Again, point to me an example of Severn using a PP in a fight. I've never seen him use more than GnP.

[QUOTE]Also....get a fighter's applicaiton from the UFC. Don't go by the rules listed on their website that the Nevada Boxing Commission made them sign off on. Go by the copy that you actually get as a part of the application and that you have to sign and agree to. Unless it has changed since the last time I saw a copy, then you will be really, really surprised to find out what is illegal to use in their fights. One guess as to what it is...[/QUOTE]

Actually, the nevada boxing commision rules prohibit "pressure points" also. This was never something the UFC wanted, but it was forced onto them by ignorant politicians like John Mccain.
And you, like every other PP nutrider on the internet have assumed that the UFC is the only MMA competition in the world.

There are dozens more in amerikkka alone, like the KOTC, gladiator challenge, rage in the cage, etc. Not to mention many more in brazil and japan.

As far as I know, UFC is the only one that prohibits PP.

[QUOTE]Second...let's look at the comment about how we have a video that shows vital points not working. Boy...you have got some great evidence there. Simply because you have a video showing one case where it did not work, then none of it works. Let's apply your logic to the following:[/QUOTE]

If you have a video of PP working on an uncooperative opponent, i'd like to see it.

<snip examples of fallacious logic>

The problem with your reasoning is that we have many positive evidence for all three of those things working. Plenty of matches show KO by head kick and of course we can always watch videos of people getting shot.

Remember, *you* are the one making the assertion, so the burden of proof rests on you.
So put forward a disprovable assertion already.

[QUOTE]But, what you have done here(besides the flawed logic) is expressed a complete lack of knowledge and understanding of the subject matter. So, I will be more than happy to share my keizu (lineage) with you...how about you tell me yours?[/QUOTE]

I have none. I am a sportfighter. I train at an MMA gym. What I do that sets me apart from 99% of all "pressure point" practicioners is get hit all over my body regularly with hard contact by resisting opponents.
If you have something useful you can show to us, do so. You stand to make a lot of money. If you can show us an easy way to KO a resisting opponent that works better than the muay thai we use right now, we will not only pay you for the service, i'll bet you'll even get a share of the winnings from the fight your technique was used in. The same goes for any sportfighting gym on the planet.

So show us something already.

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#108012 - 02/08/05 03:32 AM Re: How the "death touch" works
Anonymous
Unregistered


I don't know how claiming that something already has MWM explanation invalidates it.

Much more believeable than five element theory.

Body hardening toughens you up for blows, but also PP techniques.

Refer to the example I have on the main forum - using an upper block or knifehand block - the medical explnation is that you are changing the blood pressure to get a stun or KO. Why complain about it?

I am tempted to think if it's good enough for Dan Severn, it's good enough for me.

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#108013 - 02/17/05 01:51 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hedgehogey:

It does not surprise me in the least that you totally ignored the vast majority of the points made and the questions asked.

Michael

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#108014 - 04/09/05 10:15 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
Anonymous
Unregistered


Dim Mak is a Chinese art that extends from the internal martial arts and carried over to Shaolin Long Fist and Northern, Southern boxing styles. It has nothing to do with force, it is an energy technique in which the JING (Essence) is used to block energy channels in the opponent. In theory, by striking the right point, the energy could block vital channels, nerve(energy) and cause death within minutes or days. When I say strike, I am talking about mere slaps, taps, and pokes, not full power punches or kicks. Also, skill will beat strenth all of the time. I hope this clears some of this up.

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#108015 - 04/11/05 03:30 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
Anonymous
Unregistered


OK, so why when you watch UFC do you generally see two very big blokes pumelling the **** out of each other using a lot of brute force?

Why don't we see one of the thousands of people who have learned something about Dim Mak devastating his opponenents with a single strike?

Surely if learning Dim Mak gives you the ability to reliably drop an opponent to the ground other martial arts wouldn't need to exist?

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#108016 - 04/14/05 04:39 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
Anonymous
Unregistered


How can a 98-pound woman or child defend himself or herself against a 250-pound attacker regardless of their fitness or skill level? The only way is with the effective use of pressure points.


BullS*** all i can say is she is going to get her arse kicked if she cant hit the point hard enough plus anyone who is only 98 pounds shouldnt leave a hospital and if they do they should cary a gun if they can lift it.


btw thats the only part i could reply to with out feeling like a complete moron or jackarse anyways eather they would have to hit the point with force or just run or have a gun

[This message has been edited by TidusHanyou (edited 04-14-2005).]

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#108017 - 04/20/05 11:39 AM Re: How the "death touch" works
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hmn... Hullo everyone. Firstly, I would substantially like to agree with Meijin. The Death Touch doesn't exist in quite the way far too many people talk about it!

Please let me introduce myself in the only way a martial artist really should, and that is by stating the names of his teachers. I have received proper training by Grand Master Chan Hon Chung, Chairman of the World Chinese Martial Arts Federation; also Lung Kai Ming, Grand Master of Northern Shaolin School. However the knowledge is not exclusively Chinese and some of my masters knew Gogen Yamaguchi personally, and we regard him as essentially belonging to the same school that we do...

I am what is known as 'within the family door,' and I do have precise and accurate knowledge of the secret systems and techniques which are being discussed here.

One of the biggest problems I see in why people think about this subject in the wrong way, is due to the fact that frankly in the first place, not even that many Chinese really comprehend the scholarly form of writing and speaking that has been used to pass down the system.

Further, the English translater Dr. John Dudgeon - who translated the few authentic ancient classical texts on the matter - being alive in the Victorian era, refrained from explicitly and accurately translating the quite earthy sexual nature of some of the ideas on 'energy.'

One of the reasons I find myself on this board/forum at all is my disgust at way the currently most popular/leading self-proclaimed expert on this subject (and who has written numerous books on it!) has captured the mindset and ideas about the subject, but who really has no knowledge at all about it that is genuine.

I will presently endeavour to explain as much as I am able to say here on the subject.

Best Regards to all,

John (Yik On)

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#108018 - 04/20/05 12:22 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
Anonymous
Unregistered


Of course, absolutely EVERYONE who is the head of a major school more-or-less, would LOVE to say they have accurate and appliable knowledge of a thing with such mystique! And to some extent this IS true of every genuine master of almost every decent school... But you must be pedantic if you want to know the full truth here, and separate between specialist use of important attack target points - and the apparently mythical 'Divine Hand' (which is the correct phrase).

As Meijin rightly points out, why isn't an accidental hit occasionally the cause of a 'death touch?'

The Death Touch is never used in the heat of an angry fight, to the best of my knowledge. Among those clan families who truly know about it, it is in the first place regarded as a feminine technique, also slightly indulging in a kind of black magic, and wherever there is a male possessor of this knowledge that person has the name virtually of something like a Shaman.

Females MIGHT be taught it, in the event they are required to protect something really important, as a last resort, and where there is no prospect of loyal male protection or male guards. Being normally somewhat physically weaker than males, obviously they require a way of defending themselves that doesn't rely purely on strength.

For males who REALLY learn the complete system, do you know that they 'lose' seven years of their natural life, firstly in studying the techniques under a true master/mistress - and if they ever have to use the techniques to cause a death, they give up ten years of their natural lifespan for each death actually caused. They swear a blood oath about these sacrifices BEFORE they are ever taken in by a true master/mistress. The whole thing is a pseudo-religious event (or FULLY religious, if you are prepared to look at it that way).

There are four levels of 'Divine Hand' - one that causes short-term paralysis, one that causes something like a stroke, one that causes debilitating illness, and one that leads to certain death. A 'Divine Hand' death touch (or any level of it) may be reversed.

A practitioner is in a type of a trance when they carry out the method.

There is no physical force at all used when the method is employed - it looks very much like someone doing calligraphy but with nothing in their hand, just the hand itself and the extended fingers. Wing Chin Grand Master Yip Man was a true exponent of this. I would not be prepared to state the names of the people from my family who were exponents, but you should know that the infamous Sung sisters (one married to Chiang Kai Shek) were exponents. They were from the very aristocratic Sung/Moon clan. This family is known in Cantonese as the Haw Moon Tong - or Kuo Min Tang, which is the same as the political party in Taiwan, which is in fact named after that family.

All right. Now the most important part - how it works, and what is actually happening.

Next posting.

Regards,

John (Y O)

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#108019 - 04/20/05 01:11 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
Anonymous
Unregistered


In the past, there HAS been very advanced knowledge that we today call 'scientific,' but the possessors DID NOT dispense this knowledge to all and sundry. Evidence the fact that so-called 'natural medicine' these days finds a place in modern curriculums in medical science teaching institutions - although most of it comes from what used to be thought of as 'unscientific eastern/oriental herbalism.'

A lot of modern massage and remedial massage therapy comes from Oriental muscle, nerve, and anatomy medical practice.

A consistent misreading of one particular classical Chinese medical text involves 'revolving the breath or air/circulation of the blood...' This misunderstanding has led to virtually all of the misknowledge related to Chinese 'energy' medicine.

In fact, as someone earlier said, the human physiology works at different rates during different times of the day. Power - which is energy into mechanical balance - is trained in the secret internal system by gathering energy from colour, sound, food, and even thought patterns, and given a body focus with very special patterns of body actions/exercises. This training takes at the very least seven or so days, even for a top master in good physical condition.

This phase is called 'Lo Tung' or 'Lo Han' - which means installing a demi-god spirit into the practitioner, or sometimes a 'lit-up man' (a man with a divine fire inside). Tibetan monks have rituals of the same kind, and also in Thailand there is a festival each year that demonstrates this as a 'performance,' although it has an underlying spiritualistic meaning.

Dr John Dudgeon's shyness to say what was actually in the classical texts is about the fact that sexual odours (one type of 'essential air') can be affected by chemical substances rubbed onto the skin surface. In the same way, chemical compounds rubbed onto the skin MOVE UPWARD IN THE BODY, CARRIED BY THE FLOW OF BLOOD IN CIRCULATION AND THE RATES DETERMINED BY THE DIURNAL PATTERN OF THE HUMAN PHYSIOLOGY.

...They also move outward from the spine in order to be processed by the liver and kidneys. If they are caused to move INWARD toward the spinal cord, or directly to the heart from above the stomach, they can have harmful effects. Relatively ordinary substances such as orange peel oil, plum wine, tumeric powder, pepper oil, nutmeg oil can either heal, or cause a good deal of harm.

There is far too much more that goes into all of this than I wish to say here or now, however, there definitely IS such a thing as the Divine Hand or Death Touch and I have for a very long time wanted to make a video clip of one of my female students subduing a tall, powerful male with no more than the mildest touch near the rhombus/scapular - and you would be quite amazed, I am sure, when the fellow drops to his knees with his eyelids fluttering shut trying to fight against a highly involuntary reaction.

Believe me, it has been very hard for me for many many years, to say nothing to virtually anyone about the involuntary reactions nearer the groin from Divine Hand techniques - and yet that is, afterall, what the few known classical texts translated by Dr. Dudgeon are actually about. The book 'Chinese Healing Arts' by William R. Berk contain these texts, but this is typical of the earnest and sincere, but fundamentally misguided English books about the entire subject.

Mind you, as I have earlier said, sadly, there are very few Chinese people even, who really have knowledge of this part of their own culture; they themselves proliferate arrant nonsense about so many things they claim to be authentic in their culture. I shake my head every time there is a documentary on a Taoist temple - people who understand what is involved in classical Taoism are microscopic in number, in my view, yet modern Chinese people all over the place have these temples which appear to me to be not much more or less than vegetarian Chinese versions of a Protestant church!

I would seriously doubt that there could be more than a few hundred scholars who understand the Tao worldwide! But then, I am biased.

Best Regards,

John (Y O)

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#108020 - 04/21/05 07:48 AM Re: How the "death touch" works
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Hi Yik On Tang:

Let me introduce myself in the proper way that I understand. My name is JohnL and I claim no linage whatsoever other than an enquiring mind.

I actually read all your three posts despite their length and could find little of value in them.

If you want to detail a death touch, go ahead. If not then stop claimining secret knowledge. This has been done by the snake oil sellers for centuries.

JohnL

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#108021 - 04/21/05 02:00 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi JohnL,

In my view, an enquiring mind is way enough lineage for a human being!

I recall when I was about nine or ten, and very loud (unfortunately!) American tourists would get out their super 8 movie cameras and say to their wives: 'look Martha, this young boy has got us a great front row position for the parade... Oh look Martha, look at the beautiful colours!"

And then they would go very silent and you could actually see their jaws drop when they realised the 'beautiful colours were metal chariots being dragged by chains and spikes stuck through the flesh of the devotees, who were clearly in some sort of trance state.'

The Death Touch is part of the same ritual practices as carried out each year in places like Thailand known there as the Jia Chai Festival. I'm pretty sure you will find pictures and greater details on the net about this.

It's very hard for me to 'DETAIL' the Death Touch methodology as - although I believe that I had gone some way to doing that - words are not as effective a form of communication as actions.

All in all though, it is my remaining declaration, despite your quite terse response, that the Death Touch is part of a spiritualistic, sort of 'shamanistic' type of ritual within some parts of Chinese Martial Arts. I realise that these ideas do not find resonance within the minds of some strongly materialistic people - and I don't criticise this - but I'm sure you will find that all literature about the Death Touch will support what I have been saying in this regard.

Whether or not you are prepared to accept that the ritual practices lead to ability to deliver the Death Touch is not for me to say, but you should also know that the belief system involved, says that an irresponsible person, or one whose own intention is questionable, will themselves suffer badly from attempting the techniques or the art. I'm not sure whether your irritation is simply the result of years of disappointment listening to - as you say - those who make claims, or from some other thing. Have I given the impression that I count as one of those? I wasn't aware the the main long range style kung fu school systems (from which I come) all over the place in say, San Francisco, or Oklahoma - had such a bad reputation!

I shall re-read what I had earlier wrote, which I had assumed was both different and contributive to a better understanding, and yet possibly from what you shot back at me, not...! I shall re-read it with a view to perhaps better saying or in greater detail underlining the main system training.

And if I am not able to satisfy you beyond that, then I shall try no further.

Regards,

John (Y O)

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#108022 - 04/21/05 02:42 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
Anonymous
Unregistered


Oh yes, upon re-reading what I had earlier written, I did sound rather pretentious if taken from a certain perspective. Although, from my perpective, I was only stating facts about myself but I realise maybe I am too close to the situation to recognise how it may sound to someone else.

The things I will try to better summarise are these:

1. In keeping with what some people here have said, no, it is not my understanding that the Death Touch is a defensive technique or some amazing thing one can use in a situation that suddenly develops such as a fight as such.

2. It is actually something supposed to be like an assassination method. A person prepares well beforehand, and then goes out and delivers the 'Divine Hand.'

3. The best way I have to describe what it is, and why I certainly know it to be real, is to ask you all to ask yourselves if, you have ever experienced a well-performed massage...? In that experience have you ever felt better, literally as a visceral 'feeling?' The Death Touch is performed somewhat EXACTLY like a massage technique, as far as I would say, but one in which the person feels REALLY BAD afterwards as the direct result.

In one way I can describe it, it is a REALLY SNEAKY technique, because the person will not at first suspect what has happened unless they are already aware about these things. For example, a strike may accidentally be given, which hurts, and then the striker apologizes and claims they are massaging away the pain/bruising/pooling of blood. Whereas... Can you see what I mean?

There is undoubtedly for me, a whole SYSTEM like an art, exactly as is entailed in what you call katas, or as in Cantonese 'Kuen/kun' however you want to say it. And this visually looks like 'painting circles in the air.'

I'm afraid I don't know what more I could or should say here, except that there isn't any doubt whatsoever for me that you can easily make someone faint, or become sick, or more, with this set of techniques. However one last thing I should say - I personally do not understand the idea of 'meridians' at all, even though I would say I am somewhat of a Taoist scholar(!), because my reading of the ideas about them are vastly different from what is so common everywhere - even in Western natural medicine teaching institutions - that they bear no comparison at all.

I personally don't even believe that so many quite legitimate Taoist religion-practising Chinese people have the right ideas about such things - and I'm afraid I do not have the desire to confront them with arguments over it!

Suffice it to say at this point, that for me at least, the basic idea is that if you introduce a substance chemically through the skin at the soles of the feet... ... this substance will be caused to rise up the body to the head... ...all the time becoming smaller or finer and more 'essential' whilst some of it falls back into organs or channels which people have called meridian lines or points along meridians. The ordinary blood, at the same time, flows/is pumped/'falls'(sic) downwards to the feet again after RECEIVING THE BENEFIT OR OTHERWISE OF THE ESSENTIAL CHEMICAL SUBSTANCE THAT WAS AT FIRST INTRODUCED.

I will restate what I said earlier, the Death Touch is something held to be part of A RELIGIOUS RITUAL, in which there are beliefs entailed about non-physical - and therefore in our modern day, un-real/unscientific - processes. Which of course, people are free to believe or disbelieve!

And I will leave things at this point.

Kindest Regards,

John (Y O)

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#108023 - 05/07/05 07:46 PM Re: How the "death touch" works [Re: Kung Fu Wayne]
BaguaMonk Offline
Member

Registered: 12/18/04
Posts: 404
Loc: DALLAS TX BABY
Quote:

The "Death Touch" sounds nice and misterious but the fact is there are many ways to kill a person with a single strike if you strike certain meridian points at certain angles. It all revolves around stoppping the flow of the internal energy which flows through meridians, thats basically it.

I understand there are other types of "Death Touches" which relay on sending the energy of the strike deep into the body - the main principle in most striking in Kung Fu (striking loose and only tensing up just before the moment of impact).




You sir, for the most part are correct. The problem is you have every other guy and system of differen arts, in particular external ones, trying to implement it into their system. There is so much confusion and controversy, because of how many masters never transmitted it to certain students, and if they did in bits and pieces.

Internal arts pretty much revolve around Dim Mak, that is the original ones, not the modern forms. Except you use fa jing to inflict the internal damage, and not just physical impact (although it is usually a combination). No point arguing, it doesn't accomplish anything, who cares if it "exists." By the way "death touch" is the worst name ever, it has nothing to do with touching, it is in fact very explosive. The difference is that masters usually are able to release this explosive energy with hardly any visible movement, hence the thought of "touch," this observation comes from those who know nothing of the nature of Dim Mak.
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Truth comes from the absolute stillness of the mind...

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#108024 - 05/09/05 11:50 AM Re: How the "death touch" works [Re: York Karate]
Ambrosius Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 15
Quote:

Force = mass (size) x velocity





NO NO NO!!!!

Momentum = Mass*Velocity and Linear momentum is conserved.
Kinetic Energy = 1/2 * Mass * Velocity ^2
This is why a bullet can do so much damage to someone without the gun ripping your hand off.

And lastly:
Force = Mass * Acceleration

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#108025 - 05/09/05 11:43 PM Re: How the "death touch" works [Re: Ambrosius]
BaguaMonk Offline
Member

Registered: 12/18/04
Posts: 404
Loc: DALLAS TX BABY
Also it is believed that true Dim Mak has more to do with the nerve impulses and electrical pathways, as well as the supposed flow of bioelectricity. But sometimes it also refers to blood. Back then science was not where it was today, sometimes when "chi" is mentioned it is talking about blood, or rather the electrical pathways which the blood is led on. But sometimes it might be talking about the way nerve impulses flow, as well as the bioelectric currents in our body. Some strikes do BOTH physical and internal damage, for example ABOVE the adams apple there is a point that can cause great damage if struck upwards, but you would also hit the adams apple, hence physical damage. You will never know what an internal strike is like until you have been hit by one, you will literally feel it travel through your body, like a small shock/painful sensation. Physical strength and precision alone will do the work, but true "death" onto some of the smaller points, requires internal training.
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#108026 - 07/09/05 07:38 AM Re: How the "death touch" works [Re: BaguaMonk]
Shin Ogre Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/22/04
Posts: 13
Loc: New Zealand, Ch Ch
Random Story

I'm a kick boxer and mixed martial arteest . I've had some guy from martial arts get real anoyed with sparing me and tried to pick a fight with me. He had gone to one of those PP seminars and was really good at that sort of stuff I think it was Dale Speedy's seminar, he bluntly came up to me and hit me in the chest (might i add i thought his hand got stuck in my pleen :P, it was painful) he then tried a wrist lock and pp's......sooooo anyways, i got angry turned round kicked his legs out and dropped him. I left feelin like i had a shrunk torso, but i whooped him.

I want to know two things...

When he hit me was it possibly a pressure point? im conditioned to the max and it still rocked me and im not small or weak.

Secondly what a load of crap, i owned him and he knows it, i think PP's are budget in a fight, im sure i couldnt pull off a PP graple, finger strike (not to be confused with a punch to the kidney or temple etc) do any other people have the same thougts as me or have experienced similar things. What could PP's posibly be used for apart from showing off?
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#108027 - 07/03/07 10:16 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
musicalmike235 Offline
Member

Registered: 05/30/07
Posts: 64
How does the "death touch" work? Simple. IT DOESN'T!!! Thank you.


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#108028 - 07/04/07 10:59 AM Re: How the "death touch" works [Re: musicalmike235]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Please do not bump up old post without any meaningful contribution whatsoever!

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#108029 - 09/18/07 05:53 PM Re: How the "death touch" works [Re: JohnL]
Hawks01 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/23/07
Posts: 7





A few points on your reply;

"Well the police who train at my dojo tell me, as have every police officer I have ever asked, that somewhere between 70 –80% of the conflicts that they are called to are ones where people are pushing and grapping each other."

The case for police is different. If an altercation occurs a policeman is far less likely to get a full blown attack launched at him than a regular guy. If the policeman does get subjected to this kind of attack, they certainly don't rub or touch pressure points. Gross motor skills take over.

"It allows you to control the situation without major escalation."

I disagree
If you are involved in an altercation and try to rub a guys pressure points (sorry about that ) you are liable to be eating his fist before you realise the scenario has escalated."




Isnt part of training supposed to be learning how to control your opponent? I read this claim alot from non PP people. You can hit or rub a PP if you control your opponent, which isnt that hard to do.






"I realize hitting and using blunt force is easier and requires less training, but it is not always the answer to every situation."

Who says it's easier and requires less training.

"It is the lowest common demonstrator, because it is the base it requires the least amount of skill and training."

No it doesn't.

"Now you can add skill to blunt force – I teach and stress in every class “foundation skills” – the correct use of biomechanics, breathing, stance etc.. These “foundation skills” apply to all aspects to martial arts from blunt force trauma to finger locks and Kyusho. No technique will be really effective without strong foundation skills to support it."

Great, now we're getting somewhere.

"The whole point behind pressure points is they are the equalizer, and if used correctly can to very effective."

Without the skills of a good delivery system your knowledge of pressure points is of no use. You may know where they are, but without the appropriate skills you will never hit them strongly or accurately enough to have any effect.

"a very petite female student who had been training with us for 3 months was at the university pub and when one of these macho guys grabbed her. She affected the release – it does work if you train."

"If she had no fighting training prior to her time with you then the fact that she got out of the situation unscathed is pure luck. If you're now telling people that with pressure point training and nothing else you can defend yourself you are doing more harm than good. A beginner who is told this may be stupid enough to think he can handle himself and stick his/her nose into a situation he cannot control. There are far too many Walter Mitty type MA's out there already. They generally end up getting badly hurt."




Cant the same be said for any Martial Artist? Even a white belt learning the basic "Block, Punch, Kick" Karate will get hurt if they stick his/her nose into a situation he cannot control. Are you really claiming that there arent students who feel that they can beat up anyone after just a few months of training? This isnt solely PP students

"I believe you are misleading children and their parents, women and small men if you think correctly executed blunt force is the answer. Go train in a gym to get fit or train to defend yourself with pressure point applications ."

If you look at Martial Arts in general arent all systems designed to be a small person vs a bigger person art? Do you honestly believe that every Oriental Master was bigger and stronger than their Western oppponents? Look at the founder of Isshinryu or Aikido neither one of them is big. They had to use techniques other than blunt force trama.





As I said before, without the basic delivery system the pressure points won't work. To tell women/children that these are the great equalizer is to put them in a more dangerous situation than if they knew nothing. To fight effectively you need to be fit, you need a good delivery system, you need to be good at your system, you need to have trained in other systems. If you then add to that knowledge and ability base by learning pressure points, fine.




Here I agree with you. You need a good foundation to add PP theory to. I also think that you should be trained in PP theory right from day one. Why "block" when you can attack a PP point on your opponents arm? I think it is just rethinking some of the basic techniques that are being taught
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#108030 - 09/19/07 03:58 PM Re: How the "death touch" works [Re: Hawks01]
TimBlack Offline
Exalted

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 1403
Loc: UK, Brighton
2 things: First, this is an old thread which was heated enough at the time; it doesn't need resurrecting. Second, most Martial Artists do not have a problem with PP in general - that is, that some places hurt more than others. John's point was simply that he did not like the idea of training people to 'rub' or 'touch' supposed PP, rather than teaching people to punch or kick.

The only place that anyone disagrees in this thread is in the original problem: the idea of 'death touches' or knock-out touches which do not rely on blunt force trauma at all. In this case, I recommend that posters review the scientific literature on the subject and then start a new post to discuss it, rather than bringing up a two-year old thread.

Thank you.
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#108031 - 03/01/08 06:14 PM Re: How the "death touch" works [Re: joesixpack]
janxspirit Offline
Member

Registered: 02/21/08
Posts: 132
Quote:

Reading Patrick Mc Carthy's translation of the bushibi, I see an explanation of the much vaunted "death touch". This paticular explanation goes on to say that death occurs after the strike causes severe internal hemorraging or a blood clot.

This makes sense, but it implies that i) dim mak can only be done after a hard strike, ii) implies nothing about weakening blows or fire points, iii) implies that (most) death touch points are blood gates, not nerve points in the sense of paralysing, neurological shutdown or pain points.

Thoughts?




Much better to learn to throw a solid knockout punch than to worry about creating blood clots, in my opinion.
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#108032 - 03/01/08 06:54 PM Re: How the "death touch" works [Re: janxspirit]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
janxspirit, I agree completely.

Often we are told to peruse scientific literature. My question is; what good does that honestly do?

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