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#108019 - 04/20/05 01:11 PM Re: How the "death touch" works

In the past, there HAS been very advanced knowledge that we today call 'scientific,' but the possessors DID NOT dispense this knowledge to all and sundry. Evidence the fact that so-called 'natural medicine' these days finds a place in modern curriculums in medical science teaching institutions - although most of it comes from what used to be thought of as 'unscientific eastern/oriental herbalism.'

A lot of modern massage and remedial massage therapy comes from Oriental muscle, nerve, and anatomy medical practice.

A consistent misreading of one particular classical Chinese medical text involves 'revolving the breath or air/circulation of the blood...' This misunderstanding has led to virtually all of the misknowledge related to Chinese 'energy' medicine.

In fact, as someone earlier said, the human physiology works at different rates during different times of the day. Power - which is energy into mechanical balance - is trained in the secret internal system by gathering energy from colour, sound, food, and even thought patterns, and given a body focus with very special patterns of body actions/exercises. This training takes at the very least seven or so days, even for a top master in good physical condition.

This phase is called 'Lo Tung' or 'Lo Han' - which means installing a demi-god spirit into the practitioner, or sometimes a 'lit-up man' (a man with a divine fire inside). Tibetan monks have rituals of the same kind, and also in Thailand there is a festival each year that demonstrates this as a 'performance,' although it has an underlying spiritualistic meaning.

Dr John Dudgeon's shyness to say what was actually in the classical texts is about the fact that sexual odours (one type of 'essential air') can be affected by chemical substances rubbed onto the skin surface. In the same way, chemical compounds rubbed onto the skin MOVE UPWARD IN THE BODY, CARRIED BY THE FLOW OF BLOOD IN CIRCULATION AND THE RATES DETERMINED BY THE DIURNAL PATTERN OF THE HUMAN PHYSIOLOGY.

...They also move outward from the spine in order to be processed by the liver and kidneys. If they are caused to move INWARD toward the spinal cord, or directly to the heart from above the stomach, they can have harmful effects. Relatively ordinary substances such as orange peel oil, plum wine, tumeric powder, pepper oil, nutmeg oil can either heal, or cause a good deal of harm.

There is far too much more that goes into all of this than I wish to say here or now, however, there definitely IS such a thing as the Divine Hand or Death Touch and I have for a very long time wanted to make a video clip of one of my female students subduing a tall, powerful male with no more than the mildest touch near the rhombus/scapular - and you would be quite amazed, I am sure, when the fellow drops to his knees with his eyelids fluttering shut trying to fight against a highly involuntary reaction.

Believe me, it has been very hard for me for many many years, to say nothing to virtually anyone about the involuntary reactions nearer the groin from Divine Hand techniques - and yet that is, afterall, what the few known classical texts translated by Dr. Dudgeon are actually about. The book 'Chinese Healing Arts' by William R. Berk contain these texts, but this is typical of the earnest and sincere, but fundamentally misguided English books about the entire subject.

Mind you, as I have earlier said, sadly, there are very few Chinese people even, who really have knowledge of this part of their own culture; they themselves proliferate arrant nonsense about so many things they claim to be authentic in their culture. I shake my head every time there is a documentary on a Taoist temple - people who understand what is involved in classical Taoism are microscopic in number, in my view, yet modern Chinese people all over the place have these temples which appear to me to be not much more or less than vegetarian Chinese versions of a Protestant church!

I would seriously doubt that there could be more than a few hundred scholars who understand the Tao worldwide! But then, I am biased.

Best Regards,

John (Y O)

#108020 - 04/21/05 07:48 AM Re: How the "death touch" works
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Hi Yik On Tang:

Let me introduce myself in the proper way that I understand. My name is JohnL and I claim no linage whatsoever other than an enquiring mind.

I actually read all your three posts despite their length and could find little of value in them.

If you want to detail a death touch, go ahead. If not then stop claimining secret knowledge. This has been done by the snake oil sellers for centuries.


#108021 - 04/21/05 02:00 PM Re: How the "death touch" works

Hi JohnL,

In my view, an enquiring mind is way enough lineage for a human being!

I recall when I was about nine or ten, and very loud (unfortunately!) American tourists would get out their super 8 movie cameras and say to their wives: 'look Martha, this young boy has got us a great front row position for the parade... Oh look Martha, look at the beautiful colours!"

And then they would go very silent and you could actually see their jaws drop when they realised the 'beautiful colours were metal chariots being dragged by chains and spikes stuck through the flesh of the devotees, who were clearly in some sort of trance state.'

The Death Touch is part of the same ritual practices as carried out each year in places like Thailand known there as the Jia Chai Festival. I'm pretty sure you will find pictures and greater details on the net about this.

It's very hard for me to 'DETAIL' the Death Touch methodology as - although I believe that I had gone some way to doing that - words are not as effective a form of communication as actions.

All in all though, it is my remaining declaration, despite your quite terse response, that the Death Touch is part of a spiritualistic, sort of 'shamanistic' type of ritual within some parts of Chinese Martial Arts. I realise that these ideas do not find resonance within the minds of some strongly materialistic people - and I don't criticise this - but I'm sure you will find that all literature about the Death Touch will support what I have been saying in this regard.

Whether or not you are prepared to accept that the ritual practices lead to ability to deliver the Death Touch is not for me to say, but you should also know that the belief system involved, says that an irresponsible person, or one whose own intention is questionable, will themselves suffer badly from attempting the techniques or the art. I'm not sure whether your irritation is simply the result of years of disappointment listening to - as you say - those who make claims, or from some other thing. Have I given the impression that I count as one of those? I wasn't aware the the main long range style kung fu school systems (from which I come) all over the place in say, San Francisco, or Oklahoma - had such a bad reputation!

I shall re-read what I had earlier wrote, which I had assumed was both different and contributive to a better understanding, and yet possibly from what you shot back at me, not...! I shall re-read it with a view to perhaps better saying or in greater detail underlining the main system training.

And if I am not able to satisfy you beyond that, then I shall try no further.


John (Y O)

#108022 - 04/21/05 02:42 PM Re: How the "death touch" works

Oh yes, upon re-reading what I had earlier written, I did sound rather pretentious if taken from a certain perspective. Although, from my perpective, I was only stating facts about myself but I realise maybe I am too close to the situation to recognise how it may sound to someone else.

The things I will try to better summarise are these:

1. In keeping with what some people here have said, no, it is not my understanding that the Death Touch is a defensive technique or some amazing thing one can use in a situation that suddenly develops such as a fight as such.

2. It is actually something supposed to be like an assassination method. A person prepares well beforehand, and then goes out and delivers the 'Divine Hand.'

3. The best way I have to describe what it is, and why I certainly know it to be real, is to ask you all to ask yourselves if, you have ever experienced a well-performed massage...? In that experience have you ever felt better, literally as a visceral 'feeling?' The Death Touch is performed somewhat EXACTLY like a massage technique, as far as I would say, but one in which the person feels REALLY BAD afterwards as the direct result.

In one way I can describe it, it is a REALLY SNEAKY technique, because the person will not at first suspect what has happened unless they are already aware about these things. For example, a strike may accidentally be given, which hurts, and then the striker apologizes and claims they are massaging away the pain/bruising/pooling of blood. Whereas... Can you see what I mean?

There is undoubtedly for me, a whole SYSTEM like an art, exactly as is entailed in what you call katas, or as in Cantonese 'Kuen/kun' however you want to say it. And this visually looks like 'painting circles in the air.'

I'm afraid I don't know what more I could or should say here, except that there isn't any doubt whatsoever for me that you can easily make someone faint, or become sick, or more, with this set of techniques. However one last thing I should say - I personally do not understand the idea of 'meridians' at all, even though I would say I am somewhat of a Taoist scholar(!), because my reading of the ideas about them are vastly different from what is so common everywhere - even in Western natural medicine teaching institutions - that they bear no comparison at all.

I personally don't even believe that so many quite legitimate Taoist religion-practising Chinese people have the right ideas about such things - and I'm afraid I do not have the desire to confront them with arguments over it!

Suffice it to say at this point, that for me at least, the basic idea is that if you introduce a substance chemically through the skin at the soles of the feet... ... this substance will be caused to rise up the body to the head... ...all the time becoming smaller or finer and more 'essential' whilst some of it falls back into organs or channels which people have called meridian lines or points along meridians. The ordinary blood, at the same time, flows/is pumped/'falls'(sic) downwards to the feet again after RECEIVING THE BENEFIT OR OTHERWISE OF THE ESSENTIAL CHEMICAL SUBSTANCE THAT WAS AT FIRST INTRODUCED.

I will restate what I said earlier, the Death Touch is something held to be part of A RELIGIOUS RITUAL, in which there are beliefs entailed about non-physical - and therefore in our modern day, un-real/unscientific - processes. Which of course, people are free to believe or disbelieve!

And I will leave things at this point.

Kindest Regards,

John (Y O)

#108023 - 05/07/05 07:46 PM Re: How the "death touch" works [Re: Kung Fu Wayne]
BaguaMonk Offline

Registered: 12/18/04
Posts: 404

The "Death Touch" sounds nice and misterious but the fact is there are many ways to kill a person with a single strike if you strike certain meridian points at certain angles. It all revolves around stoppping the flow of the internal energy which flows through meridians, thats basically it.

I understand there are other types of "Death Touches" which relay on sending the energy of the strike deep into the body - the main principle in most striking in Kung Fu (striking loose and only tensing up just before the moment of impact).

You sir, for the most part are correct. The problem is you have every other guy and system of differen arts, in particular external ones, trying to implement it into their system. There is so much confusion and controversy, because of how many masters never transmitted it to certain students, and if they did in bits and pieces.

Internal arts pretty much revolve around Dim Mak, that is the original ones, not the modern forms. Except you use fa jing to inflict the internal damage, and not just physical impact (although it is usually a combination). No point arguing, it doesn't accomplish anything, who cares if it "exists." By the way "death touch" is the worst name ever, it has nothing to do with touching, it is in fact very explosive. The difference is that masters usually are able to release this explosive energy with hardly any visible movement, hence the thought of "touch," this observation comes from those who know nothing of the nature of Dim Mak.
Truth comes from the absolute stillness of the mind...

#108024 - 05/09/05 11:50 AM Re: How the "death touch" works [Re: York Karate]
Ambrosius Offline

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 15

Force = mass (size) x velocity

NO NO NO!!!!

Momentum = Mass*Velocity and Linear momentum is conserved.
Kinetic Energy = 1/2 * Mass * Velocity ^2
This is why a bullet can do so much damage to someone without the gun ripping your hand off.

And lastly:
Force = Mass * Acceleration

#108025 - 05/09/05 11:43 PM Re: How the "death touch" works [Re: Ambrosius]
BaguaMonk Offline

Registered: 12/18/04
Posts: 404
Also it is believed that true Dim Mak has more to do with the nerve impulses and electrical pathways, as well as the supposed flow of bioelectricity. But sometimes it also refers to blood. Back then science was not where it was today, sometimes when "chi" is mentioned it is talking about blood, or rather the electrical pathways which the blood is led on. But sometimes it might be talking about the way nerve impulses flow, as well as the bioelectric currents in our body. Some strikes do BOTH physical and internal damage, for example ABOVE the adams apple there is a point that can cause great damage if struck upwards, but you would also hit the adams apple, hence physical damage. You will never know what an internal strike is like until you have been hit by one, you will literally feel it travel through your body, like a small shock/painful sensation. Physical strength and precision alone will do the work, but true "death" onto some of the smaller points, requires internal training.
Truth comes from the absolute stillness of the mind...

#108026 - 07/09/05 07:38 AM Re: How the "death touch" works [Re: BaguaMonk]
Shin Ogre Offline

Registered: 12/22/04
Posts: 13
Loc: New Zealand, Ch Ch
Random Story

I'm a kick boxer and mixed martial arteest . I've had some guy from martial arts get real anoyed with sparing me and tried to pick a fight with me. He had gone to one of those PP seminars and was really good at that sort of stuff I think it was Dale Speedy's seminar, he bluntly came up to me and hit me in the chest (might i add i thought his hand got stuck in my pleen :P, it was painful) he then tried a wrist lock and pp's......sooooo anyways, i got angry turned round kicked his legs out and dropped him. I left feelin like i had a shrunk torso, but i whooped him.

I want to know two things...

When he hit me was it possibly a pressure point? im conditioned to the max and it still rocked me and im not small or weak.

Secondly what a load of crap, i owned him and he knows it, i think PP's are budget in a fight, im sure i couldnt pull off a PP graple, finger strike (not to be confused with a punch to the kidney or temple etc) do any other people have the same thougts as me or have experienced similar things. What could PP's posibly be used for apart from showing off?
(^_^) Whatever the argument is ......I could take ya!

#108027 - 07/03/07 10:16 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
musicalmike235 Offline

Registered: 05/30/07
Posts: 64
How does the "death touch" work? Simple. IT DOESN'T!!! Thank you.

#108028 - 07/04/07 10:59 AM Re: How the "death touch" works [Re: musicalmike235]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Please do not bump up old post without any meaningful contribution whatsoever!

The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<

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