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#107979 - 06/05/03 01:53 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
York Karate Offline
Member

Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 132
Loc: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
I must not be articulating my concepts very well.

I have said repeatedly that you should integrate Kyusho Jitsu into your base style; this thus assumes one has a base style. I have also stated that “foundation skills” i.e. biomechanics, breathing, stance, focus and so on are critical to any and all arts. I teach a class 2 a week dedicated just to foundation skills. I stress this in every class and seminar I teach.

Kyusho Jitsu (Pressure points) is like any other martial arts system it requires training.
I teach what I call
M - method of activation
A – angle of attack
D – direction of attack
E – effect or outcome of attack

I take techniques and applications directly from basics and kata and we work these with all the “Foundation Skills” and add Kyusho Jistu to enhance them. Working with the core skills that we use every class makes it simple and easy to add the next level because I believe every single basic is a Kyusho technique.

5 Element theory is just one theory to work with PP, it is the first one I teach and very important to understand and be able to apply especially when working out bunaki for kata. However you also have diurnal cycle Yin Yang theory etc.

I have said nothing against any delivery system – I have said however that blunt force trauma is the lowest common denominator and it is. People go on about force and how a 130-pound person can generate enough force to handle a 240 pound person. Sorry but force = mass (size) x velocity, so size does matter when dealing with the simple strikes and kicks of our base systems.

Pressure points are not hard to hit at all and clothing is not an issue. I hit through clothing all the time, in fact at seminars I hit through a bullet-proof vest just to make the point.

I again will repeat that police officers tell me most confrontations start from pushing and grapping and in most cases the attack is by someone you know. Brutal street attacks by total strangers are very rare. So I think you need to be able to respond appropriately and that is seldom going to be poking someone’s eyes outs. You need to be able to defend yourself humanely and pressure points allow this where blunt force trauma does not.

Pressure points enhance your base art and need to be studied like any art.
They are the equalizer to over come size and strength I have seen it, I have had students tell me their real world experiences and it can easily be demonstrated.

In respect to TW 11 I teach it to everyone (and TW12 as well, which is the hit point) TW 11 will only really work with a rub and when done correctly will drop your attacker like a brick.
I teach a core set of points you can see this by going here
http://www.yorkkarate.com/Articles/Kyusho%20Jitsu%20Program%20Student%20Syllabus.pdf


Have a great day

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#107980 - 06/06/03 11:19 AM Re: How the "death touch" works
Yoseikan Student Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: UK
Have you ever felt, that in teaching humane defence, you are in any way sacrificing the effectiveness of that defence?

Many emphasise the necessity of single-mindedness of no-mind with pure focus on the task in hand. Would you accept that in trying to defend yourself humanely you are in danger of being in two minds or indirect in your method?

[This message has been edited by Yoseikan Student (edited 06-06-2003).]

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#107981 - 06/06/03 11:44 AM Re: How the "death touch" works
York Karate Offline
Member

Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 132
Loc: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
Not at all - the calmer I am the more focused I am able to be.

I will always try and first defuse a situation secondly handled it humanly and finally use lethal force.

Emotion plays a major part in your ability to defend yourself on several levels.

I won’t discuss emotion in respect to Kyusho however at the simplest level when you get angry you give up control and as a result your skill level decreases.

Do not confuse my willingness to try and avoid a situation with my inability either emotional or from a skill perspective to do what is necessary based on the situation. I simply want my response to be situational and proportional.

I have been in a number of confrontations in my life because of age, location and occupation. I have hurt people when the situation required that I do so.
I am not proud of that fact; I would rather have controlled the situation so excessive force was not required. That is one reason I am so pleased to have found pressure points – they help me in meeting this goal.

I should also point out from a teaching perspective most people find the idea of using blunt force trauma and force based response difficult not just physically but mentally. I work very hard to help people understand they are worth defending and teach the levels of response for example school children and teens need to deal with the zero tolerance rule in school. You need to help them deal with this and establish a methodology to handle bullying etc that does not rely on strikes. However sometimes physical conflict cannot be avoided and you need to teach staged response here as well, both because of the legal and emotional issues that must be considered. Providing people effective humane skills that work helps over come this problem.

Kyusho Jistu (Pressure point fighting) meets this criteria I can use them humanely or step them up to a point where they are lethal as required.

I have been attacked and used PP to defend myself

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#107982 - 06/06/03 12:52 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Originally posted by York Karate:

"I should also point out from a teaching perspective most people find the idea of using blunt force trauma and force based response difficult not just physically but mentally."

An important point YK, I have found the same.
What I have also found however, is that when the training becomes harder and more difficult, these are the first people to stop their MA training. They then reappear 3 months later saying that they have discovered a new and easier way to defend themselves. They then explain how they have attended seminars on PP's and that they no longer need to train in a MA.

I have then asked them to demonstrate their new found abilities. Without exception they have all failed miserably.

I don't blame them, it's not their fault. They have learnt a little of what it takes to defend yourself, didn't like what it takes and went in search of an easy fix.

I know you say that PP fighting is no good without a good base delivery system (that we agree on) but I have seen too many people duped by PP masters(?) who have promised them the easy fix for self defence that requires minimal effort. They are then sent out into the real world with enough false confidence to get into serious trouble.

JohnL

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#107983 - 06/06/03 01:13 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
York Karate Offline
Member

Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 132
Loc: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
I can only speak for my school and to some extent the DKI schools I know. This does not happen. DKI schools all have a strong foundation in a base art and focus on foundation skills over and over and over. Kyusho is the icing on the cake that enhances the base art and makes it truly effective.

I have seen some “programs” (I won’t name them but some start with a R others with a C ) that teach self defence including pressure point based self defence and frankly I agree they do not work. I had a major issue with the university my dojo was at over this and in the end we left the campus because the security service was teaching one of these flavour of the month, well marketed self-defence programs. The university staff with no martial arts background took a whole 40 hours of training and then the were ready to teach and train people in just one weekend to defend themselves. This is both foolish and dangerous

You can’t take a weekend course or a weeklong and become a qualified instructor.
Students can’t take a 2-day or even an 8-week course and know how to defend themselves regardless of the art they are training in.

Anything worth learning is worth learning right and frankly if your investing in self defence put at least as much effort into it you would some other hobby like baseball. Martial arts and self-defence take extensive training and dedication.

You didn’t learn to walk with just 40 hours of effort, you aren’t going to learn a real self defence program in that amount of time.

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#107984 - 08/01/03 12:32 AM Re: How the "death touch" works
bushido Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/01/03
Posts: 6
I have worked with some very large and violent individuals in my career. I don't doubt that pressure points can be effective in some cases. However how do those of you who are students of pressure point arts feel about pressure point effectiveness on an attacker who is high on narcotics? It has been my experience that these drugs not only nullify pressure point (pain) receptors, but can also contribute to high tolerances for physical trauma. I also study in armed Martial arts (guns), and know for a fact that it is possible for a human being to live up to 14 seconds from a direct gunshot to the heart. (Hunters will attest to this.)

That being said, I believe though there is some validity to Pressure Point fighting, but in no uncertain terms should anyone believe that it is the end all to any confrontation. (I don't believe that has been said here...but for the sake of the novice who may come upon this site, I state this.)

I know of individuals who have been shot, stabbed, or otherwise "mortally wounded" who have been able to continue their assault..and have killed even after they themselves were mortally wounded. Please, please use caution when placing your faith in ANY technique (even guns), that said technique will guarantee you the victory.

ALWAYS HAVE A BACK UP PLAN.

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#107985 - 08/01/03 03:44 AM Re: How the "death touch" works
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
If you shoot a deer, and it still is standing, push the bolt back and foward and shoot again!

My back up plan - keep on hitting or run.

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#107986 - 09/02/03 10:38 AM Re: How the "death touch" works
Syrio Offline
Member

Registered: 09/02/03
Posts: 74
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kempoman:
BTW I don't use them anymore myself, I have moved on to Xingyiquan which makes the whole body a pressure point [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

Scott[/QUOTE]

Amen.

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#107987 - 09/22/03 11:19 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
drhess Offline
Stranger

Registered: 09/22/03
Posts: 2
Loc: USA
I guess the way I'm looking at pressure points is that the term is a bit loosey-goosey. If the definition is that it is a pressure point if it works, then we haven't gotten very far. I assume that there are several parts to the general field of Chin Na: applying pressure to take mechanical advantage of human anatomy (arm bar), applying pressure to nerve points or body parts to create pain (hitting a nerve or turing a wrist lock from advantage to pain), rendering a person unconscious or incapable of responding through a strike or severity of pain that leads to submission, blackout, etc.

Does this help? I'm new to the field, but just trying to get a grasp on some categories.

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#107988 - 09/23/03 02:31 AM Re: How the "death touch" works
exceptionist 2 Offline
one arm napalm punch

Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 438
Loc: Kanagawa Tokyo, Japan
My thoughts:
Dim Mak- using an applied force strike or otherwise to disrupt the positive path of enrgy flow into a more negative flow as to cause the catamination of healthy chi equaling death eventually or very near to it.
I also understand that one has to know the proper methods of striking as well as the bodies cycle of key points which change with the seasons according to the individual birth date,skill level of the intended target. Since usually some knowlege or applicational study into Chin-na or Shiatsu,Chi gung, or varios internal systems or anything related to the path of energy throughout certain meridians can be used to lengthen ones natural life, can also be manipulated to shorten it.

the exception

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