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#107969 - 06/04/03 05:29 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by York Karate:


As a women you need these because no matter how much time you spend training without them size and strength will determine the outcome

[/QUOTE]

Sorry to argue with a yondan, but I disagree. Size and strength are only two factors in the outcome of a confrontation.
Despite being female and only weighing 130 pounds, I am more than capable of looking after myself.
I appreciate that you know a lot more about pressure points than I do, but please do not make assumptions about me, particularly ones based soley on my gender or on the fact that I train in a different way to you.
With respect
Sharon



[This message has been edited by wadowoman (edited 06-04-2003).]

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#107970 - 06/04/03 05:32 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by wadowoman:
Sorry to argue with a godan, but I disagree. Size and strength are only two factors in the outcome of a confrontation.
Despite being female and only weighing 130 pounds, I am more than capable of looking after myself.
I appreciate that you know a lot more about pressure points than I do, but please do not make assumptions about me, particularly ones based soley on my gender or on the fact that I train in a different way to you.
With respect
Sharon

[This message has been edited by wadowoman (edited 06-04-2003).]
[/QUOTE]

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#107971 - 06/04/03 05:55 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
Yoseikan Student Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: UK
[QUOTE]Originally posted by wadowoman:
Are you single? [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]
Sorry, couldn't resist!
Sharon

[/QUOTE]

I refer you to my entire sentence and risking the wrath of moderation, Sharon, i'd like to emphasise that i've never courted a young lady who tried to chew my nose off. But hey, whatever floats your boat [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG].


[This message has been edited by Yoseikan Student (edited 06-04-2003).]

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#107972 - 06/04/03 07:20 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
York Karate Offline
Member

Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 132
Loc: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
Sorry Sharon but I have to agree with John if you plan to fight straight up using traditional karate or related empty handed styles against a large strong man you will get beat, size and strength will decide the matter. By the by I never said this was a gender issue it is a function of size and strength a small 130 male would face the same issue.

Train to have fun train to learn and train to defend yourself and the latter requires a skill set to equalize size and strength.

I have said my piece on this issue, we are starting to around in circles

Good luck with your path


PS I never made an issue of my rank you asked

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#107973 - 06/04/03 08:01 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
Yoseikan Student Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: UK
Sorry Sharon but I have to agree with John if you plan to fight straight up using traditional karate or related empty handed styles against a large strong man you will get beat, size and strength will decide the matter. By the by I never said this was a gender issue it is a function of size and strength a small 130 male would face the same issue.

I'm sorry, but NO he bloody wouldn't, and John did NOT say that. And with first hand knowledge I can assure you that I wouldn't be placing any bets on the big heavy man that Sharon is hypothetically facing. I'm 140 pounds and without biggin' myself up I'm willing to scrap with much bigger and heavier opponents. Yes their strength and weight is a problem, but pressure points are NOT the only solution. I'm capable of generating power through technique and pure bloody mindedness and viciousness and dropping blokes bigger than me. I CAN'T go toe to toe with them (i've tried in the boxing ring and with a big difference in strength its usually an entertaining form of suicide), or grapple for any great period of time, but I can strike decisively and take people out.

Traditional karate gives you the tools to do this, as do many other open hand styles. Power is more important than strength and power is a product of force and velocity. Force is derived from strength and GOOD TECHNIQUE, and velocity is developed from training - practicing the correct relaxation, explosion and isometric contraction. If Sharon or I punch our weight with correct targeting there is no reason why we can't drop people twice our size without noncing about trying to grab point so and so 2 inches to the left of point such and such, on a Saturday afternoon about tea time in the third week of the month.

I can put my fingers in his eyes, I can crush his testicals, I can crush the cartilidge in his throat I can strike him hard on the chin, or round the ears and destroy his balance, I can bite, I can plaster his nose across his face. The list goes on and I don't need to be as big heavy or strong. The only necessity is to go to the heart of the matter with the attitude of ripping your opponent a brand new *rs*hole. These are stopping techniques.

with respect.


[This message has been edited by Yoseikan Student (edited 06-04-2003).]

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#107974 - 06/04/03 08:58 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
York Karate Offline
Member

Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 132
Loc: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
I have never understood the need for such vehemence – a dialogue and discussion can be carried out without this.

You are free to try all these nasty things if you want, firstly I don’t understand why you seem to think it is easy to strike the eyes for example but go on about “without noncing about trying to grab point so and so 2 inches to the left of point such and such, on a Saturday afternoon about tea time in the third week of the month.”

Pressure points are simple to attack if you study them and the activation area is about the size of a quarter (or an eye) so if you feel confident you can strike an eye why do you feel so confident I can’t strike a pressure point?

I said “foundation skills” are important and having a base art to add them to is important having said that at 140 if you put your base karate skills up against a 240 pound man trained in a similar base skill size and strength will determine the outcome. I keep saying it is the lowest common demonstrator and it is. All things being equal the big buck will win.

Karate has it roots in Bubishi, which systematically describes how to extinguish human life in very specific terms, by seizing, pressing, squeezing or traumatising specific points.

So your base art has all this in it but the information was not transferred to westerns. It has required work to rediscover this information and reapply it.

I also said most fights start with pushing and grapping and this is back up by police officers inside my dojo and everywhere I speak to them. This aggressive punch for punch fighting is rare indeed at least where I live. Fights start with a push and a reasonable response is not to crush someone’s larynx, this will land you in jail, a response needs to be measured and appropriate.

While I am more than capable of looking after myself given my physical size and strength and well as skill level in both my base art and Kyusho I want to avoid hurting someone at all costs.


When I was recently attacked in a mall but a street tough ˝ my age I was able to control the situation so no one was hurt using skill not blunt force trauma

I might also point out the best response is one that does not involve physical confrontation at all.

Now I am really done with this, I am not going to post on this topic again, we are going in circles you are welcome to your opinion and path as I am mine.

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#107975 - 06/05/03 07:12 AM Re: How the "death touch" works
Yoseikan Student Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: UK
Eyes can be accessible targets, not always, but its a good example of a target that stops people no matter where you strike it. Much easier to access then a point covered by loose or thick clothing, which whilst might have an 'activation' area of the same diameter, doesn't produce the same results if you are slightly out. Nasty works.

I don't doubt your ability, nor the effectiveness of a strike to a point, but I don't believe touching or rubbing does anymore than annoy and cause pain. It doesn't deal with the threat, and with the effects of adrenaline, sweat, fear and violent movement on the part of the opponent I don't see it stopping him.

The point is all other things won't be equal. Karate is not a battlefield art, its civil defence, not necessarily designed with the trained opponent in mind. Thats not to say it can't be adapted, but in any case are you saying that if we both (me and my 240lb opponent) train pressure points as well i can't take him down? A 240 pound man is a different man to a 140 pound man. Thus they train and fight differently. Its not a proportional increase in size, and thus direct comparisons are flawed.

I've been taught to strike certain points/targets, karate is in part a percussive martial art. We strike certain targets - described in the Bubishi, however i'm less than certain that karate was ever intended to be a touching and/or rubbing art.

It is a sweeping generalisation that most fights start with a push. And frankly to call punching a more aggressive form of fighting that is 'rare' is naive to my way of thinking. Fights are 'aggressive' by their nature, all sorts of things do and can happen. In my experience if someone wants to fight you they want to hurt you badly. They don't walk up to you and give you a little push and see what happens next. Punching, kicking, pushing, shoving, whatever, you have to respond with a greater level of violence if you want to survive, its not nice, but thats how it is. If someone shoves me hard and raises their fist i'm well within my rights to punch him in the throat. If I fear for my life then I'm entitled to defend it with force. The law will require a test of reasonableness, and so will my conscience, but I'd rather satisfy the latter and stay alive and well then satisfy the former and end up dead or damaged.

Your attitude is very admirable and I agree with your principles, but not if it means greater risk to my person, and I believe this touching and rubbing response to a motivated aggressor does. If someone attacks me with serious intent, then hes going down if its withing the sphere of my ability.


Your mall experience is very impressive and its great that your response was so proportional, but was this man really trying to hurt you/kill you? or just intimidate you/

Why stop posting, there is a lot of disagreement here, but we are covering new ground and there is no malice in anyones words. I am interested in your responses and agree that its possible for two contasting opinions to exist without anyone throwing the toys out of the pram.



[This message has been edited by Yoseikan Student (edited 06-05-2003).]

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#107976 - 06/05/03 07:57 AM Re: How the "death touch" works
York Karate Offline
Member

Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 132
Loc: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
Force = mass (size) x velocity

Given your last post more later

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#107977 - 06/05/03 10:59 AM Re: How the "death touch" works
Kempoman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
Glad to see theres no moderation needed here.

My humble thoughts on the matter...

Adding points to your arsenal is good. Is it vital...no. The points work, but not all of them they way you think they should. There are several key points that work all of the time. The theory (five element, that is) falls apart for KO's when you get outside of these points, but making up new KO's is not what you should be focused on. These points however are the ones that are most acessable during a fight. Whether standing up, sitting down or on your back, pressure point enhance your techniques.

The problem is that most don't know the activation, angle or direction to apply the force and you can't without begin shown.

Instead of yelling yeah hunh, unh-unh back and forth and getting nowhere here's an example for the skeptic crowd to try...(JohnL I know you have an open mind and I would love to here your comments on this after trying)

Everyone is has seen police officers try to bring suspects to the ground using an arm bar. Usually a big fiasco involving a ver non-compliant suspect and a few uncoorinated efforts trying to bring the guy to the ground. Now the problem is not with the tecnique itself (an ambar is a vaild technique), the problem is in the application. The officers are using a pressure point, TW-11 to be exact, just not using it properly. So here's the test

Grab uke's arm at the wrist and then apply arm bar straight force just above the elbow (in the depression) and push. Then try it again this time with a back and forth rubbing motion that goes in the direction of shoulder-hand, hand-shoulder. The rub should encompass about 1 to 1-1/2 inches long. Use the knuckles that you would to knock on someones door. Later you can modify it to use the forearm.

Everyone try this and then let's discuss!

Scott

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#107978 - 06/05/03 12:41 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Kempoman, Oh Great Moderator [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

"The problem is that most don't know the activation, angle or direction to apply the force and you can't without begin shown."

I agree, and this is one of the main differences between hitting a pressure point and poking someone in the eye.

When I poke someone in the eye I do so with a group of fingers so I don't have to be too accurate. In addition I don't have to worry about angle and direction, any will work and give the desired result.

Your test technique.
"Grab uke's arm at the wrist and then apply arm bar straight force just above the elbow (in the depression) and push. Then try it again this time with a back and forth rubbing motion that goes in the direction of shoulder-hand, hand-shoulder. The rub should encompass about 1 to 1-1/2 inches long. Use the knuckles that you would to knock on someones door. Later you can modify it to use the forearm."

Done this one extensively. Yes there is a pressure point there, and yes iy hurts. Personally I prefer to use the boney protrusion on the outside of my wrist. (On a scale of 1-10, touching it 0, rubbing it 4, hitting it hard 8)

The problem is that to rub it as you describe (or hit it), you have to first get into grappling range, get hold of the other guys arm, twist the arm to position the arm to expose the pressure point, and then apply the technique.

Don't get me wrong, I have studied the use of pressure points for a number of years and use them regularly, however the objection I have is when they are put forward as an alternative to a solid MA background. I believe that to say that they are an equalizer is wrong. Without a good background in Judo, or other manipulating skill, you will never get to expose the pressure point you have identified.

Pressure points can and should be examined in detail but are not a substitute for the basic skills. They can add to your arsenal but are in no way the equalizer suggested.
JohnL

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