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#107959 - 06/03/03 02:22 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
Kempoman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
Pressure Points should be used to enhance techniques and abilities already learned and worked out. It won't help one whit to someone with no proper training in how to hit, understaning of tai-sabaki, ashi-sabaki and so on.

Most KO's (which if this is all you are training the points for, you have made a large mistake) that are shown and demonstrated in a seminar situation will not work under duress. This trend to get 'kooky' and complex with the tecniques is crazy.

This is a part of a very bad trend to try and come up with KO's that don't come from the kata. If you practice the kata enough and then you wont be trying to hit the points, you will because it is how you trained.

BTW I don't use them anymore myself, I have moved on to Xingyiquan which makes the whole body a pressure point [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

P.S. delayed reactions of points have no martial application at all during the fight.


Scott

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#107960 - 06/04/03 07:55 AM Re: How the "death touch" works
York Karate Offline
Member

Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 132
Loc: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
Where to start?
Lets start here “Touching or rubbing them. If you are telling people that touching or rubbing pressure points is effective self defence, think again. The touching or rubbing is done in seminars so people don't get hurt too much.”
Well the police who train at my dojo tell me, as have every police officer I have ever asked, that somewhere between 70 –80% of the conflicts that they are called to are ones where people are pushing and grapping each other. In cases where this is the type and level of conformation using tuite and activating pressure points by rubbing etc is very effective. It allows you to control the situation without major escalation. The result is you are able to defend your self safely without being arrested, and yes at least here you will very likely be arrested for excessive force it you start striking to cause damage. I realize hitting and using blunt force is easier and requires less training, but it is not always the answer to every situation.
“Who says blunt trauma is the lowest common denominator? Teaching people to generate good force with what they have is a skill worth having. If you're going to hit pressure points your blunt trauma skills had better be up to snuff.”
"How can a 98-pound woman or child defend himself or herself against a 250-pound attacker regardless of their fitness or skill level?"
“Garbage. Pressure points will not help one bit in the situation you describe.She's gonna get a thumpin'”
Lets start with you first statement how else would you describe the use of size and strength? It is the lowest common demonstrator, because it is the base it requires the least amount of skill and training.
Now you can add skill to blunt force – I teach and stress in every class “foundation skills” – the correct use of biomechanics, breathing, stance etc.. These “foundation skills” apply to all aspects to martial arts from blunt force trauma to finger locks and Kyusho. No technique will be really effective without strong foundation skills to support it.
In respect to your second point, “She's gonna get a thumpin'”, then why train in the martial arts? It simply makes no sense to invest time and effort into something that has limited or no payback. If a small person wants to be fit they would – based on your assessment, be better off in a gym. If as you believe all confrontations are resolved on size and strength and the use of blunt force then the martial arts are only going to be effective for big people – so sorry all you women, children and small men don’t waste your time.
The whole point behind pressure points is they are the equalizer, and if used correctly can to very effective. I have had several small female students attacked by those big macho guys who are using size and strength to intimidate. In every case they were bale to use pressure points to get away from these “men”. One case in particular comes to mind where a very petite female student who had been training with us for 3 months was at the university pub and when one of these macho guys grabbed her. She affected the release kicked SP6 and hit him on ST5 and he dropped to the floor. The bouncers tossed him and she got a standing ovation from very women there. If she was a black belt who trained in “traditional – read sport - karate” and tried those silly blocks alone and strikes she would have lost – but by combining them with pressure points it was effective – it does work if you train.

Scoot I fully agree that “Pressure Points should be used to enhance techniques and abilities already learned and worked out.”
I can’t speak for others by both my own training and that I teach is focused solely on simple and effective techniques we always look to basics and kata. Basics are the building blocks for kata so I start people working basics, because I believe every basic is a Kyusho technique. If you work this every time you work basics you will learn the skill, then when you work kata you are working a series of basics.
And yes there are levels blunt force, pressure points, energy manipulation, sound, colour and so one. But you need to build a solid foundation upon which to build your house, so we start teaching Kyusho from day one – teaching principles and making sure people know what a technique can do
Everyone is entitled to an opinion and to train as they desire but I believe you are misleading children and their parents, women and small men if you think correctly executed blunt force is the answer. Go train in a gym to get fit or train to defend yourself with pressure point applications .

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#107961 - 06/04/03 09:34 AM Re: How the "death touch" works
Yoseikan Student Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: UK
[QUOTE]Originally posted by York Karate:

In respect to your second point, “She's gonna get a thumpin'”, then why train in the martial arts? It simply makes no sense to invest time and effort into something that has limited or no payback. If a small person wants to be fit they would – based on your assessment, be better off in a gym.

[/QUOTE]

I'd just like to say that i'm really enjoying reading this. My pressure point knowledge is limited and its interesting to see the debate.

To be honest i'm a bit of a doubter in terms of the effectiveness of touching and rubbing people when they are trying to chew your nose off, but thats not to say I think the system is without validity.

From what i've seen demonstrated in terms of the more 'soft' style of pressure point fighting, i'm always wondering how much compliance was given on the part of the uke. However having said that i don't doubt the effectiveness of a precise hard strike to a particular point.

In reference the the above quote, surely martial arts isn't soley about being an effective fighter on the (wait for it)...... 'STREET'. 'cos frankly whilst I love training and all the benefits I'm not about to devote hundreds of hours of training to deal with a handful of situations in my life that will last only a few seconds and in all likelihood I could get taken out anyway. The sort of situations that I can run from or might get taken out from behind with a 2by4, or have to face multiple opponents and lose any way. Training a good right cross or an attack to point 'insert appropriate obscure number and letter [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]' aint gonna help much in a smokey, dark, noisey club when someone lays a hand on your shoulder from behind and sticks a knife in your back. Don't you think? Ability to defend yourself is hopefully one benefit we gain from training, but surely training is more than just a trip to the gym if we reject that objective?

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#107962 - 06/04/03 12:48 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Hi York Karate:
Glad you responded. It's nice to know that some of the comments I make cause thought.

A few points on your reply;

"Well the police who train at my dojo tell me, as have every police officer I have ever asked, that somewhere between 70 –80% of the conflicts that they are called to are ones where people are pushing and grapping each other."

The case for police is different. If an altercation occurs a policeman is far less likely to get a full blown attack launched at him than a regular guy. If the policeman does get subjected to this kind of attack, they certainly don't rub or touch pressure points. Gross motor skills take over.

"It allows you to control the situation without major escalation."

I disagree
If you are involved in an altercation and try to rub a guys pressure points (sorry about that [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] ) you are liable to be eating his fist before you realise the scenario has escalated.

"I realize hitting and using blunt force is easier and requires less training, but it is not always the answer to every situation."

Who says it's easier and requires less training.

"It is the lowest common demonstrator, because it is the base it requires the least amount of skill and training."

No it doesn't.

"Now you can add skill to blunt force – I teach and stress in every class “foundation skills” – the correct use of biomechanics, breathing, stance etc.. These “foundation skills” apply to all aspects to martial arts from blunt force trauma to finger locks and Kyusho. No technique will be really effective without strong foundation skills to support it."

Great, now we're getting somewhere.

"The whole point behind pressure points is they are the equalizer, and if used correctly can to very effective."

Without the skills of a good delivery system your knowledge of pressure points is of no use. You may know where they are, but without the appropriate skills you will never hit them strongly or accurately enough to have any effect.

"a very petite female student who had been training with us for 3 months was at the university pub and when one of these macho guys grabbed her. She affected the release – it does work if you train."

If she had no fighting training prior to her time with you then the fact that she got out of the situation unscathed is pure luck. If you're now telling people that with pressure point training and nothing else you can defend yourself you are doing more harm than good. A beginner who is told this may be stupid enough to think he can handle himself and stick his/her nose into a situation he cannot control. There are far too many Walter Mitty type MA's out there already. They generally end up getting badly hurt.

"I believe you are misleading children and their parents, women and small men if you think correctly executed blunt force is the answer. Go train in a gym to get fit or train to defend yourself with pressure point applications ."

As I said before, without the basic delivery system the pressure points won't work. To tell women/children that these are the great equalizer is to put them in a more dangerous situation than if they knew nothing. To fight effectively you need to be fit, you need a good delivery system, you need to be good at your system, you need to have trained in other systems. If you then add to that knowledge and ability base by learning pressure points, fine.

JohnL

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#107963 - 06/04/03 01:19 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
Anonymous
Unregistered


I have very limited knowlege of pressure points because I have only recently started learning about them, but here's my opinion anyway.
I have had them demonstrated on me and they DO work, but they only stop someone in their tracks if you STRIKE them.
I think knowing where they are is a great bonus if you can also strike effectively, but I personally find the nose or the jaw much easier to hit than a pressure point in which a small area has to be hit at a certain angle.
As John says, there is much skill needed to strike effectively.
York Karate, how long have you been training?
Sharon

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#107964 - 06/04/03 01:22 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Yoseikan Student:
[B

To be honest i'm a bit of a doubter in terms of the effectiveness of touching and rubbing people

B][/QUOTE]

Are you single? [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]
Sorry, couldn't resist!
Sharon

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#107965 - 06/04/03 02:16 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
malanr Offline
Member

Registered: 05/30/03
Posts: 66
Loc: IN USA
JohnL,

Do you understand this is a discussion forum, not a "you are wrong, I know all" forum?

I am just saying it is interesting how you tear everything up and try to eat it for dinner. I think you need to get some Kyusho instruction. then you might understand what we are talking about.

Pressure Points hurt, rubbing, touching or striking. If you hit me in the head, yea it might hurt and if you are lucky you might knock me out. but if you don't hit a pressure point, and don't knock me out, then i'm gonna get real pi$$ed and you better watch out.

Does anyone else agree with me?

York, I agree 100%

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#107966 - 06/04/03 02:31 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
York Karate Offline
Member

Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 132
Loc: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
Malanr a great point an open mind goes a long way - however I am use to this type of approach and frankly it doesn't bother me, just makes me a bit sad for the art. But if they don't want to listen or learn it is their loss not mine.

Sharon I can assure you PP work with a rub, from a finger lock , from a touch or yes a strike. It is all situational and based on your skill level just like any other aspect of the arts.

As a women you need these because no matter how much time you spend training without them size and strength will determine the outcome

Per our request Martial Arts Bio
I started my martial arts training 1978 in Tai Chi. I am currently a student of Master George Dillman in Kyusho Jitsu in which a hold a rank of GoDan and Tasshi Alvarez in Okinawain GoJu Karate in which I hold a rank of YonDan.

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#107967 - 06/04/03 02:34 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
malanr Offline
Member

Registered: 05/30/03
Posts: 66
Loc: IN USA
York, I study under Bill Anders, former Student of George Dillman. Small world ain't it.

"keep on, keepin on"

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#107968 - 06/04/03 04:56 PM Re: How the "death touch" works
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by York Karate:
"Malanr a great point an open mind goes a long way - however I am use to this type of approach and frankly it doesn't bother me, just makes me a bit sad for the art. But if they don't want to listen or learn it is their loss not mine."

Tut, tut, tut YK. You do not know if I have an open mind or not. I listen, and contribute to the forum regularly. Just because my own views don't necessarily coincide with yours, doesn't mean I'm not open minded.

"Sharon I can assure you PP work with a rub, from a finger lock , from a touch or yes a strike. It is all situational and based on your skill level just like any other aspect of the arts."

Trying to grab someones fingers in the heat of a confrontation is dubious practice at best. You're also likely to slip off as you'll be sweating at the time. I still argue that rubbing/touching PP's is ineffective for self defence.

"As a women you need these because no matter how much time you spend training without them size and strength will determine the outcome"

Size isn't that important. Strength is a relevant factor.

Malanr
I'll discuss any subject you wish, just because I put my opinions forward forcefully doesn't mean I'm not listening to others.

Your comment, "I think you need to get some Kyusho instruction. then you might understand what we are talking about."

You do not know my background. Making assumptions about someone you don't know is dangerous. If you take this philosophy on the street, you may come unstuck. What you see on the surface isn't necessarily a true reflection of what's on the inside.

JohnL

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