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#107884 - 09/01/01 01:32 PM Chasing the Cat
Kempoman Offline

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX

I didn't want this thread to get lost in a technique thread so I thought I'd start a new one...

[It's good to put the cat amongst the chickens at times. Helps remove their comfort zones. Let's hope they know their pressure points.]

I agree that an open dialogue is a good thing, so cats and chicken together can be fun. Knowing/learning about pressure points is what this forum is all about. People will come here to learn, question and criticize the first two are great the third will not be tolerated. That was not directed at you but as I stated in a previous post this is a place to share knowledge and learn.

There is no longer a question as to whether or not kyusho/tuite jitsu work, or as to whether they were included in the original Okinawan systems, or to their effectiveness in combat. There is still some debate over the "mechnisim" that causes the science to work, but work it does.

[No insults intended but if you are not sure of the point names, and therefore their nature, how can you be sure of applying the correct restoration technique?

This is a very good point and one that needs to be addressed. Understanding what points you are striking and the order in which they are struck is vital to proper energetic restoration. However the body energetic system tends to seek balance and will use the "Strange flow" reservior to return balance in most cases even if revival is not done. There are exceptions, especially when working with alarm/associated points and such, but someone KO'd using St-5 will wake up on his own and be ok.

Still with any technique posted here I will include an appropriate revival restoration.

[Despite obvious safety measures in a dojo, it is still possible to have either 1) an over exuberant student or 2) a student with an unknown constitutional weakness.

This is why we always say to train pressure points under the instruction of a qualified instructor of kyusho/tuite jitsu.

[I have never been impressed by teachers on seminars knocking out volunteer recievers. I have personally seen a "world reknown" figure struggle to rescuscitate a recipient. It took nearly 20 minutes for the "victim" to respond and recover.]

That's good because it's not meant to impress only demonstrate effectiveness. There's are kind of catch-22 situation that goes on around pressure point seminars. Either we do no knockouts and told it doesn't work, or we do the KO's to demostrate the science in action and people say that they aren't impressed by people standing still being knocked out with light taps. The standing still is for the uke's protection and safety. Most have reached a compromise and relegate the KO's to the end of the seminar almost like an afterthought. The information passed on the in teachning session is far more important than any KO performed afterward.

[Being a clinical shiatsu practioner as well as a martial artist, I do understand the power and effects of external manipulation of the points or meridian network.
Unfortunately, due to egos, monetary gains and marketing, pressure point applications are being emphasised as the be-all and end-all of a technique,when really it is the icing on the cake. Correct application of timing,distancing,angles,leverage and basic body mechanics are what make the techniques work.

These are the same things that cause the kyusho/tuite applications to work as well. No one in our system beleives that pressure points are the be-all, end-all they are useless without the other 80% of the information. We always bill them as an extension of any martial art, the hype may come from those who are at the beginning of their study, as some of the effects can be very overwhelming.

I think that you are hanging out with the wrong group of pressure point people, hang here and feel the love.

[Any other chickens out there that would like to chase this cat?

Nah, I'm really tired after this post.


[This message has been edited by Kempoman (edited 09-01-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Kempoman (edited 09-01-2001).]

#107885 - 09/05/01 06:59 PM Re: Chasing the Cat
keith morgan Offline

Registered: 08/22/01
Posts: 10
Loc: West Midlands,England
Good response and you are obviously intelligent.No offence was intended,but criticism is a good thing and should be tolerated if it is constuctive or leads to questionong,hence open dialogue. I still believe some of the points knowledge is questionable and whether they would work or not under true conditions. As human beings let's hope we don't have to test them!
You mentioned "qualified practioners". Qualified by whom is the obvious next question. And what student, guided by either fear or respect,is going to question qualifications,and how would they know if they were genuine or not.
I was not criticising your system,I don't know it. The system is irrelevant anyhow.All I know is that there are a lot of modern "masters" prostituting their "knowledge" over the ignorance of keen disciples to these wonderous methods of death.
Do I hang out with these? NO! But I have been invited several times to attend various seminars as a guest with these others present. Obviously, being a cat, curiosity drags me along too. Inevitably I always come away disappointed.
Let's not get too tired over this subject (could show you some points to help tiredness) and keep the forum open,even to critical comments.
Anyhow, I'm about to test the response of St 17 on my girlfriend,just to make sure I've still got the touch!!
Yours in Budo and Universal friendship,
Cool Cat Keith.

#107886 - 09/05/01 10:13 PM Re: Chasing the Cat
Kempoman Offline

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX

First, I apologize for my rudeness...Welcome to the forum!!!

Good response as well. Questions and questioning are always welcome. We are are searching for a better way to defend ouselves. Amen, to not having to use the knowledge but sadly I have. I bounced for a while and used a lot of tuite(pressure point grappling) that saved many a situation from going bad. I have used kyusho several times in real street combat and once in life or death, gave better than I got and KO'd each of them.

Do all of the points lead to KO's...No. Are better than 50% useful in tuite/kyusho...YES!

The combined science of TCM and MWM(Modern Western Medicine) get you a ton of bang for the buck.

Qualified instructors are a more difficult matter. A "qualified" person should be one that knows how to utilize the points for health and self-defense. The ability to demonstrate using restraint, but still be effective is a plus. The system is irrelevant, but the teaching methods aren't. My system is keep whatever works, and chunk what don't. They should give information to those who are trying to learn and withhold from those who aren't yet ready. If you are ever in the area of Houston,TX or Washington D.C. let me know and we'll have a seminar. I am sure that you will see the difference. Not saying that I am a master, but I do love to share and learn and do teach many, successful seminars each year on this subject. I'll even come to you we just need a place. Hell I'll do the seminar for free. I promise you won't be disappointed.

I'll post another thread for waking up, and even a qigong exersize that promises to keep you going.

Speaking of girfriends and such, that is the best part of the art which I would be glad to discuss in private e-mail with you.



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