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#107876 - 08/25/01 04:07 PM Responsiveness
Kempoman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
Many people get frustrated when beginning their study of pressure points, due to the lack of response of some people.

This is something that you must accept going into the study. There will be people who dont respond like you expect them to when you are PRACTICING...

Practice is different that reality in a number of ways which we can have endless discussions on. The science will work for you in real time. It has for me and many others who have been unfortunate enough to have to use it to defend self or others.

To help ease those egos I offer the following about responsiveness to the practice taps. The pattern is very similar to a Bell Curve. The majority approx. 60% will repond well, about 15% on either side will respond a liitle more or a little less and the last 5% on the outside of that will respond overly well or almost not at all.


[This message has been edited by Kempoman (edited 08-25-2001).]

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#107877 - 08/25/01 09:29 PM Re: Responsiveness
Gojute Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/02/01
Posts: 24
Loc: Anderson, South Carolina, USA
The science will work for you in real time.
..... I guess Ill have to take your word on that matter. [IMG]http://bbs.fightingarts.com/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

The majority approx. 60% will repond well, about 15% on either side will respond a liitle more or a little less and the last 5% on the outside of that will respond overly well or almost not at all.
..... Why would I want to practice techniques that only have a 60% chance of working. Are you trying to say that at the beginning level this is the best you can expect and that as you become more proficient at the technique your percentages increase?

Ron (gojute) [IMG]http://bbs.fightingarts.com/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#107878 - 08/25/01 10:17 PM Re: Responsiveness
Kempoman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
Gojute-san,

I understand your questions. You don't need to take my word for it, you can take as many people that have used kyusho and tuite in real-life situations. I have personally used it in at least four situations. One of these was life or death. I was struck but he went down. It has worked as promised each and every time I have used it in a fight. Sadly there are plenty of more stories like mine.

What I meant about the bell curve is that in practice we use no more than 10% of our physical strength to gain an effect(otherwise volunteers would get awful hard to come by [IMG]http://bbs.fightingarts.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]). In a real fight you will give them much more of a whack.

Also as you get your hands on more and more people and learn about intent and how to transfer power and jing into an uke these numbers change to almost 100% even in practice. There will be some that never respond, but I have also given a front-snap kick to the nose(much like the feared palm-heel to the nose) and had the guy stand there and look at me and not drop and die.

So what I'm saying is pressure points enhance things that we already use and do. If you're going to hit the guy in the jaw why not hit him on Stomach-5(the sub-mandibular ganglion) with a move from Nahanchi. I am not saying that all pressure point KO's that you may see in a seminar are viable on the street, in fact many simply are not. But there are some great kata movements that WILL KO anyone and I'm not just talking about a chop to the neck(Stomach-9).

We all pray that we never have to use this our arts, but when we do I'll take any help I can get!

Peace, Hugs, and Kisses

Scott

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#107879 - 12/30/01 11:39 PM Re: Responsiveness
mr_n1 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 12/29/01
Posts: 4
Loc: Uk
Hello, Im very interested in the study of pressure points as a new Martial Artists. In class 1 day the teacher demod 2 types of pain. One of a strike and one of pressure point stike. This might sound wired, but the second still hurts mentally.

Is there any more info on the web about pressure points? If so i would be gratefull for the links.
ThankQ

NIk

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#107880 - 01/24/02 11:26 AM Re: Responsiveness
Shadowfax Offline
Member

Registered: 10/08/01
Posts: 296
Loc: Mason City, IA
How long ago was that class? What point did your instructor hit? if you're still feeling effects and it's more than 24 hours later (and you're sure it's not just a bruise from the actual strike) then your instructor may need to reverse the technique.


As for working on 60% of the people, like Kempoman said, pressure points are less effective with lighter touches. They're also less effective at certain times of the day. They also depend on the race of the recipient for their effectiveness - -whites are more responsive to some pressure points than other races, for example.

However, if you're doing the pressure point right, you should elicit SOME sort of response. TW11 will ALWAYS (done correctly) bend them over and cause their head to snap up. ST5up/down will ALWAYS (again done correctly) cause either disorientation or unconsciousness. And of course, C17 (done really correctly) will always cause the heart to stop. Granted, there may be that one guy out there that might not be effected by one of these pressure points, but I have my doubts as to even that - -- all a pressure point strike does is cause activity or inactivity (depending on what you strike) in a nerve pathway. We all saw a few days ago what a pressure point can do when our Fearless Leader forgot to chew his pretzel. His doctor explained that he had a "vasal-vagul response." In other words, the pretzel touched a pressure point in the throat (They're there, but no one studies them because getting your fingers down their throat would be hard which effected his vagus nerve, which caused his brain to shut down to protect itself from low blood pressure.


Since every normally developed human has these nerve clusters in the same spot, the pressure point will effect pretty much everyone when done correctly, meaning proper angle, direction, and to some extent the intensity of the strike.

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#107881 - 02/17/02 04:48 AM Re: Responsiveness
Isshinryu88 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/16/02
Posts: 6
According to Kempoman's Bell curve, the techniques would be effective on 80% of the people, and somewhat efective on additional 15%- not just on 60%. Remember that there is 20% of the population that is extra sensitive to the techniques.

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#107882 - 10/10/02 06:35 PM Re: Responsiveness
Kyushoka Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 15
Certainly everyone's nervous system is goign to operate a little bit different. Some peoples nerves are more sensitive than others. Some people's nerves are less sensitive naturally, or by outside means. An unfortunately accident could cause nerves on one part of the body to be "dead" or "hyper-active".

For those who become frustrated not getting the results you are looking for in the class room from time to time, remember this... You are standing there together working out a technique, both knowing full well exactly what you are trying to do. Your uke patiently awaits your strike or other manipulation and then either a) literally reacts b) reacts the way you expect him to because he doesn't want you to do it for real c) stands there and lets you pound on him over and over again. If he/she jsut stands there and takes it then you are either a) not hitting the point properly and then should help you using feedback b) they aren't sensitive to that point under these conditions or c) feels it but is too 'proud' and 'tough' to show you the pain. It takes all types I tell ya! Keep trying, in my experience some people just don't feel certainly points using regular applications. Try other points! If they are dead above the waist, try the leg points. Still nothing.. try then leg points and then the arm or body points? Something is bound to work, it jsut takes some time and experience. And remember, in the dojo, uke standing there with both feet flat on the ground, comfortable as can be and expecting the technique is the HARDEST way to get the points to work. In the street the fight is over in seconds, the points aren't expected, there are distractions, and you are FIGHTING FOR YOUR LIFE. You might hold back on a friend but not on the assailant trying to kill you. And then of course the cardinal rule of all fighting... just KEEP GOING... STRIKE STRIKE STRIKE and don't stop stiking until the fight is over.

Well, enough of my rambling, I hope I could lend some insight to someone out there. We're all in this together.

Peace and good health!

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#107883 - 03/26/03 05:45 AM Re: Responsiveness
Scholar Offline
Member

Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 472
Loc: Brockton
The hard to know factors are angle and depth for target. Does selection of hand form such as one-fore knuckle- index or middle (or Both) ensure automatic penetration or can it have lesser effect if too much penetration?

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