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#107857 - 08/15/01 09:33 PM Lets Begin the experiments....!
Kempoman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
Here is one to try

Remember to use restraint and be safe when practicing any kyusho/tuite technique.

Lets begin with Lung-5(Lu-5).

Location
Lu-5 is located just above the crease of the elbow. If you place you badfinger in the crease where the tip is on the outside edge and lay you rindex finger beside it Lu-5 will be directly beneath the tip of the index finger.

Attempt the following techniques.

1) Have uke grab your lapel with right hand. Grab uke's wrist with your left hand and attack his arm at Lu-5 with your forearm. Strike down and in towards uke. Notice reaction.

2) Have uke grab your lapel with right hand. Grab uke's wrist with your left hand and attack his arm at Lu-5 with your forearm. Strike down back towards yourself. Notice reaction.

This is a very basic techniqe and goes toward showing the importance of angle and direction. We will continue with this technique and build to some extremely advanced and powerful concepts. So practice and be patient...

Scott

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#107858 - 08/20/01 11:14 AM Re: Lets Begin the experiments....!
mikeflanagan2 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/20/01
Posts: 10
Loc: UK
Hi Scott

I take it that the point you're working here is the one distal to the elbow crease (ie. between the elbow and the wrist), about 2 cun from the elbow crease on the lung channel? If so, it should be noted that this point is not really Lung 5. Lung 5 lies in the elbow crease to the outside of the tendons (the lateral side) that can be felt in the crease. The point which people usually refer to as Lung 5 (on the medial border of the brachioradialis) is not actually a classical acupuncture point at all.

I'm not sure what this experiment is designed to demonstrate. I presume its that different vital points respond to different angles of attack?

Also, people speak of "angle and direction". What is the difference between the two?

Thanks,

Mike

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#107859 - 08/22/01 12:56 AM Re: Lets Begin the experiments....!
Kempoman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
Mike-san,

I am speaking og Lu-5 not the extraodinary points below the crease or any other point.

</b>[I'm not sure what this experiment is designed to demonstrate. I presume its that different vital points respond to different angles of attack? ]<b>

The entire experiment will demonstrate many of the principles of kyusho(basic to advanced), this particular phase is to demonstrate the importance of the angle and direction on certain kyusho points.

</b>[Also, people speak of "angle and direction". What is the difference between the two?]<b>

Some points need the force to be applied at a rough angle, and others need to be activated in a particular direction. Take TW-17 for example it needs to be struck about 45 dergrees in toward the center of the head, but unless you know the direction(back to front) you wont get the desired effect.

Scott

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#107860 - 08/22/01 07:33 AM Re: Lets Begin the experiments....!
mikeflanagan2 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/20/01
Posts: 10
Loc: UK
Hi Scott

Originally posted by Kempoman:
<B>Mike-san,

I am speaking og Lu-5 not the extraodinary points below the crease or any other point.
</b>

Just went back to look at your original description. It wasn't clear to me whether you were proximal or distal to the elbow crease. You seem to be stating that you are working on the point that actually lies on the elbow crease itself?

<b>
Some points need the force to be applied at a rough angle, and others need to be activated in a particular direction. Take TW-17 for example it needs to be struck about 45 dergrees in toward the center of the head, but unless you know the direction(back to front) you wont get the desired effect.
</b>

I may seem to be being pedantic here, perhaps I am [IMG]http://bbs.fightingarts.com/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] But I'm still not grasping the difference between angle and direction. Both seem to me to be saying the same thing - that the attack on any particular point needs to be made with a specific vector (or rather a specific range of vectors) in relation to the body being attacked. A vector being movement in a specific direction at a specific point in space.

From your above statement I get the impression that you're saying 'angle' is just a rough approximation of the vector and 'direction' is more accurate. Am I barking up the wrong tree?

Thanks,

Mike

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#107861 - 08/22/01 01:21 PM Re: Lets Begin the experiments....!
Kempoman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
Mike-san,

Your right Force-Vector is probably the correct term to use. I like that much better.

The bottom line is that with some of the points there is a right way and a wrong way to hit,push,rub,vibrate the point.

Let's look at the Gall Bladder Cluster on the forehead: one above the eye and the two in the hairline(13,14,15). There are three main ways to attack this area:

1) Force Vector 45 degrees in and down towards GB-20 on the oppopsite side of the head. This produces a KO.

2) Force Vector down use a pulling down action on the area. This will drain the energy from the lower part of the body and uke will sit quick.

3) Force Vector up, use a rising/pushing motion on the area. This has an unbalancing effect on the uke, leaving the midsection drained and vunerable to attack.

Force vector...yeah I like that.

Scott

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#107862 - 01/04/02 07:15 PM Re: Lets Begin the experiments....!
martinnitram Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/01
Posts: 108
Loc: england
hi when striking GB20 and the Gall Bladder Cluster at the same time i get good results. I also do when striking GB20 seperately. But i cant seem to get much of a result when striking just the cluster. Im sure i have correct MAD and the intent is there but i cant get the results.

Any help would be appreciated.

thanx martin

ps please keep to the topic of Scotts experiment ijust needed some technical help.

[This message has been edited by martinnitram (edited 01-07-2002).]

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#107863 - 01/07/02 06:26 PM Re: Lets Begin the experiments....!
martinnitram Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/01
Posts: 108
Loc: england
I tried striking lu5 intowards uke then intowards myself. when striking intwards myself he just felt a bit of pain i found it worked best when i striked intowards ukes elbow, a rub worked good aswell intowards uke, i like to palm the point also.

is this the normall result?

Not what i was taught :confused

[This message has been edited by martinnitram (edited 01-10-2002).]

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#107864 - 01/07/02 09:08 PM Re: Lets Begin the experiments....!
Kempoman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
Martin-san,

When striking lu-5 make sure that it is lu-5 that you are hitting. Lu-5 is located above the crease in the elbow not below. The points below will augment lu-5 but they are extraordinary points. The correct strike would be back towards you with the back of the wrist or forearm. This gives you a yin/yang player also using the yang-fire on the back of the arm. The striking arm should be loose when striking. Also works much better when uke has grabbed you or you have uke's wrist.

See if this helps...

Scott

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#107865 - 01/08/02 12:24 PM Re: Lets Begin the experiments....!
martinnitram Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/01
Posts: 108
Loc: england
HI

maybe i was not hitting the point correctly. I thought it was wierd when uke said that the inwards strike was more efective as i was recently practicing the application for shuto uke and was told to strike the point away from uke like you would when bringing your hand up to do a normall shuto.

just to recap lu5 is located opposite h3 isnt it?

i would like to try the experiment again and maybe on a few different people to get a range of results.

thanx i'll give it another go.

after looking twice i saw that you had written that the point is located above the crease in the elbow i was always shown that it was just below?




[This message has been edited by martinnitram (edited 01-08-2002).]

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#107866 - 01/08/02 03:16 PM Re: Lets Begin the experiments....!
Kempoman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
Martin-san,

Yes, lu-5 needs to be struck down and back towards uke's wrist. Make the strike in a circular motion back towards you. Also, use the yang side of your forearm to strike with and leave the arm loose(heavy).

[after looking twice i saw that you had written that the point is located above the crease in the elbow i was always shown that it was just below?]

This is a common point of contention. That is why I use a larger weapon to strike this point. I will get both above the crease and below the crease. This point is not best used to induce pain. The effect that you are looking for is for the knees to buckle
and the head/neck to come forward and expose some more metal(LI-18) or even wood(GB-20) to you for the follow up. Struck with enought energy Lu-5 can knock the uke to his knees and even produce a KO.

I am going to check on putting some .MPEG's of the techs that I describe on the site.

Keep up the good work,
Scott

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#107867 - 01/08/02 03:22 PM Re: Lets Begin the experiments....!
Kempoman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
Also,

When trying the GB-Cluster(this one is hard for everyone at first) it is good to couple it with GB-24(zip the ribs down and in) on the opposite side than you intend to strike on the head. For the cluster to work for the KO there is a movement that is needed. The palm must be slightly cupped and on impact there should be a slight twist(clockwise) then the suction on the pull-off is what gets the KO. The cluster also responds wel to rubbing with the knuckles and vibration with the palm.

See if this helps.

Scott

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#107868 - 01/08/02 03:29 PM Re: Lets Begin the experiments....!
martinnitram Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/01
Posts: 108
Loc: england
Scott,

once again thanks for your help, i look forward to mpegs and pics coming into use that would be a great contribution to the site. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#107869 - 01/09/02 06:34 PM Re: Lets Begin the experiments....!
martinnitram Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/01
Posts: 108
Loc: england
I tried the experiment again on two different uke's, this time i aimed a little higher.

uke 1, assistant teacher at aikido.)

he said ' when i hit outwards towards his wrist it definately had more of an effect. Although he said he felt a sharp pain but he said a normal dead arm punch would of caused more of an effect'. When i asked to try again though he smiled and said no.

Uke 2, krateka friend)

This time i just hit it in the one direction outwards in a circular motion. The results this time were perfect, i saw movement in the uke as he droped slightly at the knees. i think the circular motion helped.

It just goes to show how techniques and knowledge being shared on this forum can easily be improved through sharing knowledge.

thanx alot
martin [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

still no improvement on the cluster though, i'll keep trying

[This message has been edited by martinnitram (edited 01-09-2002).]

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#107870 - 01/17/02 10:59 PM Re: Lets Begin the experiments....!
DGNR8 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 01/11/02
Posts: 4
You said
"When trying the GB-Cluster(this one is hard for everyone at first) it is good to couple it with GB-24(zip the ribs down and in) on the opposite side than you intend to strike on the head. For the cluster to work for the KO there is a movement that is needed. The palm must be slightly cupped and on impact there should be a slight twist(clockwise) "

I have heard this described several times now and still just don't get it.Is the motion clockwise no matter which side of his head I am striking?That would mean that on one side I am twisting toward the outside of his body,and on the other,toward the centerline.Is it clockwise "for me";i.e. imagining a clock behind my opp.,or for him;clock behind me?or is it opposite on opposite sides?I have a video clip of sensei Evan Pantazi(www.kyusho.com)performing a ko to this spot.He strikes opp.right side gb cluster with his left hand and twists COUNTER-clockwise(if the clock is to be imagined behind the opp.).HELP!!!!!

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#107871 - 01/24/02 11:34 AM Re: Lets Begin the experiments....!
Shadowfax Offline
Member

Registered: 10/08/01
Posts: 296
Loc: Mason City, IA
Hang on a sec. . .GB20 is not exactly something you want to be fooling around with unless there's a qualified instructor in the room who knows revival techniques VERY well - -- I've seen (and felt) the results of a good GB20 strike and in some cases you need revival to prevent serious problems. For learning pressure points on your own, I recommend sticking to the forearm points as they don't really do anything that's permanently dangerous.

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#107872 - 01/28/02 01:56 PM Re: Lets Begin the experiments....!
tweety Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/27/02
Posts: 6
Loc: Chicago, Il, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by DGNR8:
You said
"When trying the GB-Cluster(this one is hard for everyone at first) it is good to couple it with GB-24(zip the ribs down and in) on the opposite side than you intend to strike on the head. For the cluster to work for the KO there is a movement that is needed. The palm must be slightly cupped and on impact there should be a slight twist(clockwise) "

I have heard this described several times now and still just don't get it.Is the motion clockwise no matter which side of his head I am striking?That would mean that on one side I am twisting toward the outside of his body,and on the other,toward the centerline.Is it clockwise "for me";i.e. imagining a clock behind my opp.,or for him;clock behind me?or is it opposite on opposite sides?I have a video clip of sensei Evan Pantazi(www.kyusho.com)performing a ko to this spot.He strikes opp.right side gb cluster with his left hand and twists COUNTER-clockwise(if the clock is to be imagined behind the opp.).HELP!!!!!
[/QUOTE]


I think the easiest way to describe the twist is to twist toward the pinky finger, for best results. The other way may work with enough force, but really isn't the most efficient and natural. And, don't think of it as a straight on blow, but more of a grazing shot.

Steve

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#107873 - 01/29/02 02:47 PM Re: Lets Begin the experiments....!
DGNR8 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 01/11/02
Posts: 4
Shadowfax-
You said"Hang on a sec. . .GB20 is not exactly something you want to be fooling around with unless there's a qualified instructor in the room who knows revival techniques VERY well - -- I've seen (and felt) the results of a good GB20 strike and in some cases you need revival to prevent serious problems. For learning pressure points on your own, I recommend sticking to the forearm points as they don't really do anything that's permanently dangerous. "

First I would like to point out that GB20 was not mentioned in these posts.We were speaking of the GB cluster on the forehead.Please see this link to familiarize yourself with these points.http://www.kyusho.com/GB-C.jpg
I agree with you about revival techniques being important,which is why that was my first area of study into kyushojutsu.As far as not trying to learn points without a "qualified instructor",I will refrain from commenting as my opinion is likely to open a can of worms.

Tweety-
You said "I think the easiest way to describe the twist is to twist toward the pinky finger, for best results. The other way may work with enough force, but really isn't the most efficient and natural. And, don't think of it as a straight on blow, but more of a grazing shot. "

Thank you for the reply.This is what I kind of figured was meant,but the wording of clockwise and counter clockwise is very hard to understand considering it depends on a point of view.

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#107874 - 01/30/02 06:05 PM Re: Lets Begin the experiments....!
martinnitram Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/01
Posts: 108
Loc: england
Scott, im ready and waiting for the next experiment.... lol

martin

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#107875 - 06/24/02 10:34 PM Re: Lets Begin the experiments....!
Gordon Travers Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/02
Posts: 34
Loc: Toronto, ON Canada
A correct strike to lung 5 should drop the shoulder and bring the head forward.

If you try a douple strike to Lung 5 using the correct scoping motion you should be able to get a KO or at least a stun. This has worked for me 8 out of 10 times

You might want to consider following up the Lung 5 hit with a strike liver 14, I watched a 14 year old 110 pound gril drop a 200 pound man just 3 weeks ago with this

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