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#107760 - 09/24/00 10:57 PM Kote-kitae
joe_swift Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/00
Posts: 26
Loc: Kanazawa, Japan
Hi all,

Just a quick question, especially to those well versed in TCM,,, I don't see a TCM forum, so thought that the pressure point forum might be the next best bet,,,

It is well known that Okinawa karate styles, often practice such things as kote-kitae (forearm conditioning, including the radial and ulnar sides, the muscular padding on the back, as well as the inner forearm) and ashi-kitae (leg conditioning including the inner and outer thighs, as well as the inner and outer lower legs, shins and calves). Uechi and Goju are somewhat "notorious" for this practice, but it is not absent from many Shorin, Isshin, and other sects of Uchinadi.

My inquiry is this, and the asnwers will probably not make me stop my practice of this, but I have been morbidly curious lately,,, in TCM, is this practice frowned upon for any reason?

I would like to hear any thoughts you may have.

Joe Swift
Okinawa Karatedo
Mushinkan Dojo
Kanazawa, Japan

p.s. I also use a form of dit da jow that was created specifically for such exercises...


[This message has been edited by joe_swift (edited 09-24-2000).]

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#107761 - 11/02/00 10:54 PM Re: Kote-kitae
KenpoKev Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/25/00
Posts: 16
Loc: Genoa, Nevada, USA
Perhaps the reason is that the "conditioning" is in reality very damaging to the nerve structure. This can lead to a wide variety of illnesses that might seem unrelated to the practice. If you accept the concept of Ki (Chi), by damaging your nerve centers, you are interupting the natural flow of chi in your body, again leading to health difficulties.

I must claim ignorance for the most part in TCM, but I am on the path of learning. I have witnessed the effectiveness of PP knockouts and the excellent results of sequencial nerve strikes.
Respectfully,
Kevin Schaller

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#107762 - 11/16/00 10:17 PM Re: Kote-kitae
Kempoman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
One of the common misconceptions about pressure points(kyusho) is that they can be activated(in the negative) any which way you please. PP's have a specific manipulation, angle, and direction or M.A.D. map for activation. Unless the strikes and conditioning utilize these correct M.A.D. map for the points on the arms, then there is little effect. The addition of rubbing a good jow will counteract any ill effects from the conditioning.

Respectfully,
Scott
Continuously knuckling in on Lung-5(Chi-ze) with proper angle and direction will cause some issues, but to correct the strike and restore the energy flow, one simply needs to rub in a circular motion.

I condition my hands(Iron Palm) and forearms daily and have experienced no ill effects. I also engage in daily qigong practice.

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#107763 - 02/26/01 07:43 PM Re: Kote-kitae
omegapoint Offline
Member

Registered: 02/24/01
Posts: 150
The style that I train in (Matsunura Seito Shorin Ryu) uses extensive body hardening and 2 man drills where forearm and leg conditioning are emphasized. Since "meridians" have little to no scientific validity, all these techniques do is slowly "condition" the nerve for heightened physical contact. Continuous, controlled strikes to these sensory (in other words they control sensation and not function) nerves serves to slowly "deaden" their sensitivity to pain. In addition strengthening of tendons, muscle, and other connective tissues, as well as extra bone calcification helps to make ones internal structure more resistant to bruising and other injuries, and acclimates the practitioner to the feeling of pain. One must be careful to do this progressively and should never practice body-hardening to the extent of serious injury. In my Sensei's Dojo a typical practice session lasts over 3 hrs., and is divided between Kata&Bunkai (empty handed and Kobujutsu), and Hohan Soken;s fighting technique(s) (this encompasses body hardening).
P.S.: My Sensei also likes to use dit jow for contusions and the like, but ice (used by itself for the first 24 hrs. after the injury) and intermittent ice/heat packs after the initial 24 hrs. is also effective for (closed) minor connective tissue and skin injuries. Hohan Soken lived to be over 85 yrs. old, and didn't seem to suffer any ill effects from this type of training.

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#107764 - 08/04/01 01:15 PM Re: Kote-kitae
Brewer Offline
Member

Registered: 01/15/01
Posts: 468
Loc: Arizona,U.S.
Hello Joe Swift,
You might find these sites informative, I hope they help.
Erle Montaque's Tai Chi World
Qi Journal Links Page
Your Brother in the Arts [IMG]http://bbs.fightingarts.com/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]
I found another one for you.it's www.medsite.com Just type in Traditional Chinese Medicine [QUOTE]Originally posted by joe_swift:
Hi all,

Just a quick question, especially to those well versed in TCM,,, I don't see a TCM forum, so thought that the pressure point forum might be the next best bet,,,

It is well known that Okinawa karate styles, often practice such things as kote-kitae (forearm conditioning, including the radial and ulnar sides, the muscular padding on the back, as well as the inner forearm) and ashi-kitae (leg conditioning including the inner and outer thighs, as well as the inner and outer lower legs, shins and calves). Uechi and Goju are somewhat "notorious" for this practice, but it is not absent from many Shorin, Isshin, and other sects of Uchinadi.

My inquiry is this, and the asnwers will probably not make me stop my practice of this, but I have been morbidly curious lately,,, in TCM, is this practice frowned upon for any reason?

I would like to hear any thoughts you may have.

Joe Swift
Okinawa Karatedo
Mushinkan Dojo
Kanazawa, Japan

p.s. I also use a form of dit da jow that was created specifically for such exercises...


[This message has been edited by joe_swift (edited 09-24-2000).]
[/QUOTE]



[This message has been edited by Brewer (edited 08-04-2001).]

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#107765 - 11/08/01 03:34 AM Re: Kote-kitae
RyuShiKan Offline
Stranger

Registered: 11/07/01
Posts: 2
Loc: Tokyo
Joe,

Interesting question but it can hardly be done justice with a quick answer.........but I will be brief and relay some of the experiences I have had.

When I was doing an internship in TCM in Taiwan (I have a license to practice TCM in Japan now) many of our "best customers" were guys that had practiced "body hardening" and sanchin exercises from various Chinese styles of Kung Fu and Karate.
These guys were not that old but had many of the complaints of much older people.....arthritis, numbness in the limbs and strokes were VERY common.
The Dr. that I interned under actually wrote a book on this very topic and suffice it to say after reading about all the ailments he treated because of this type of training my ideas on the subject changed.
Especially on the practice of sanchin.

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