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#107613 - 04/15/05 06:54 AM Re: Back To Basics - Okinawan Karate Jutsu

from kara-atama,

UKshorinryu - by approximating the essence of each Okinawan -Te, you/your students will be able to mimic each, but will be proficient in none. In 200 years do you think you are the first one to think of this? be honest with yourself. You are trying to package a product, not capture the essence of anything. Am I wrong?

Again I thankyou for an interesting response, much nicer that the previous.

You have a point however I do disagree, I have trained in many dojos that make many claims and very rarely am I impressed or convinced that the dojos students are 'proficient' in anything let alone a particular style.

My personal view is that the kata existed before the breakout of shuri, tomari and naha te. And many okinawan martial artists learned many things from each of the schools, I have had some expierience of this within my own training (shito ryu and shorin ryu.)

I have seen alot of technical, analytical mumbo jumbo being taught in many dojos, which takes the students focus away from simple, hard karate training, my 'program' is to simply train students in okinawan karate, its emphasis is much more toward the manner in which we train as opposed to the techinicall correctness (although this has its place.)

I fully respect the styles, and due to being realsitic I have the oppertunity to present shorin and goju ryu - which I think gives a relativly rounded view of okinawan karate, and am simply asking for advice and direction from other okinawan karate practioners before I make my decision to try and 'formulate' the program.

My program is based on an aproximate time of commited training of minamum 4years to shodan, the gradings (if I have any!) will be taken by qualified representatives of shorin and goju and myself, and only to shodan. The dan grade system is rather unreliable in karate after all?

the students can then choose their own paths and contribute to the dojo as they see fit, my own personal studies into shorin and goju will continue till I drop (I like to just think of it as okinawan karate).

I anticipate a minamum fee will be charged to a small group of students (to cover dojo, equipment and guest instructor from shorin and goju ryu), I am fortunate in that I do not intend or need to make money from martial arts.

Please note that I intend to 'create' nothing, 'change' nothing and claim 'nothing', I am comftorable in what I am doing and hope what I teach is of use to the students, but most importantly represents okinawan karate before its 'modernisation', ie segregation into different styles and commercialisation.

I realise that this is a life long journey, I will make mistakes and will continue to learn, im personaly looking forward to the journey.

I hope that helps you understand my motivation and you can assist in my decisions in the spirit of martial arts.

[This message has been edited by UKshorinryu (edited 04-15-2005).]

#107614 - 04/15/05 07:10 AM Re: Back To Basics - Okinawan Karate Jutsu


Thankyou for your superb response, the information is most interesting, particulary the remark on goju kata taught before 'modernisation'


sanchin seyunchin sesan tensho

It looks like I may need to increase the kata to 4 for each ryu to shodan. This is not an issue and would allow better presentation of each ryu, but I would certainly not wish to introduce any more before shodan.

It is worth noting that i am not trying to encapture the whole system, but to introduce students to okinawan karate a sa whole.

My knowledge of sesan is poor, you say that it is representative of all the schools as opposed to simply goju (variations to one side). I am aware that it is taught within shorin ryu as well.

It may be that I present 3 kata from shorin, 3 kata from goju and sesan as the shodan kata?

This would leave sanchin, seyunchin,tensho representing naha te to brown belt. I have trained for many years in all of these forms (except sesan).

once again thankyou for your response

[This message has been edited by UKshorinryu (edited 04-15-2005).]

#107615 - 04/15/05 08:06 AM Re: Back To Basics - Okinawan Karate Jutsu

I did not say that sesan is representative for all 3 styles just that all major karate styles have a sesan version.
Although simularities are obvious, the hangetsu/sesan is quite different from the Goju sesan and again different from the Ueichi sesan and so forth.
Comparing a Shorin sesan with a Shorei sesan is worth the study, but still needs to learn at least 2 sesan versions.

#107616 - 04/15/05 09:17 AM Re: Back To Basics - Okinawan Karate Jutsu

Thanks for the explaination UKshorinryu, I was wrong. sorry for being abrasive.

#107617 - 04/15/05 09:20 AM Re: Back To Basics - Okinawan Karate Jutsu

My misunderstanding CCV, thankyou for pointing that out.

I will study both forms and see for myself then I can begin to make some decisions. i will also consult my instructors for their informed input.

It would seem that many kata are studied by the different systems, with emphasis minnor/major differences. Through choice I would want to avoid these forms (only at the begining stages of students training ie to shodan) and present only specific naha te and specific shorin kata, as I have said after that the student can train in whatever they choose with specifc style instructors, or simply keep to the program I offer.

[This message has been edited by UKshorinryu (edited 04-15-2005).]

#107618 - 04/15/05 09:35 AM Re: Back To Basics - Okinawan Karate Jutsu

no problem kara-atama,

thats the problem with forums, its difficult to paint the whole picture and easy to jump to conclusions.

I welcome your input into my little 'project'

#107619 - 04/15/05 11:43 AM Re: Back To Basics - Okinawan Karate Jutsu
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
UK, I believe you should learn real matsubayashi, if you did you would realize the purpose of its kata curriculum and not remove such important kata. To grade a person to shodan with only 3 shorin kata is irresponsible at best. You study matsubayashi, yet you don't know your history. Nagamine learned Rohai, Wankan, Wanshu, and Passai from Iha Kodatsu, a top student of Kosaku Matsumora. Kosaku and Oyadomari were the leading exponents of Tomari Te, which is different from Shuri Te, however, does share many similarities. The problem with what you suggest is that it will be impossible for your students to develop the proper understanding if you leave out all but three shorin kata. If you believe otherwise you are fooling yourself. There is no short cut in karate. If you want your students to be well rounded then get real teachers who teach real karate, the entire curriculum. There are a few good okinawan ryuha. Enlist legit teachers of one of them to teach shorin. Do the same for okinawan goju. Yes it will take several years, but that is what it takes to become a yudansha. Yes it will take hard work to earn a legit dan grade in each style, but that is what it takes. And I am not even going to get into the fact that I believe that the principles in shorin and goju are so different you will not be able to develop properly by studying both styles at the same time. There is no short cut.

#107620 - 04/15/05 05:32 PM Re: Back To Basics - Okinawan Karate Jutsu


your opinion is most valued, however i do think you are missing my point. I train and will continue to train in matsubayashi, its a superb ryu and i have a superb sensei.However I fully respect naha te and know the style has alot to offer as well.

The 'project' is to give new students a solid overview of naha te and shorin ryu, then when they have an understanding be able to choose there own destiny.

However on reflection I am going to hold my thoughts and concentrate on matsubayashi, whilst researching more (primarily training methods), you do have a fair point regarding the differences between the styles making it very difficult to learn let alone teach.

I am learning matsubayashi history and it is a rich one with a superb pedigree, i look forward to my continuation with the style.

Thankyou all for your views, it is appriciated. I will now consider this thread closed.

Im not sure if mods can remove the thread but if so please do.

#107621 - 04/15/05 05:44 PM Re: Back To Basics - Okinawan Karate Jutsu

[QUOTE]Originally posted by UKshorinryu:
Its a fair point Mark Hill !

The reason I am 'grouping' the 2 familys together is simple logistics, it would be extremly difficult for me to recieve instruction in 'pure' tomari te (although I study matsubayashi). I think it is generally accepted that shuri and tomari are very close together, whereas the naha te does show distinct differences.

However I am an open minded MAist and would love to include 3 pure tomari te kata into the program, which would make 9 in total.

Would you advise me of any 'pure' tomari te styles and I can begin my research and look for instruction! However I believe that tomari te is now taught as part of shorin ryu as a norm?


You can't really. I am bit of history buff, and tried to find if there was. Goju master Sekichi Iha used to teach Tomari Te as a seperate stream. People under him may have the system intact.

I will give you two web adresses of organisations which teach Tomari Te in their systems:

#107622 - 04/15/05 06:05 PM Re: Back To Basics - Okinawan Karate Jutsu

thanks for that, excellent sites.

It makes interesting reading and i will have a good look through in the morning!

As I said previously I have decided to research but not proceed with my 'project' for the time being.

However good information to okinawan karat eis always interesting!

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