FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 33 Guests and 7 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
LeroyCFischer, JadeKing, Beefcake, WesJones, simonajones111
22933 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
futsaowingchun 2
charlie 2
Matakiant 1
William_Bent 1
simonajones111 1
November
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1
2 3 4 5 6 7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15
16 17 18 19 20 21 22
23 24 25 26 27 28 29
30
New Topics
unrecognized kata
by William_Bent
11/19/14 07:05 PM
I gained a lot of month in the last few months
by simonajones111
11/19/14 04:54 AM
Siu Lin Tao-3rd section applications
by futsaowingchun
11/13/14 06:48 PM
Screen fighting course UK December 2014
by charlie
11/11/14 04:09 PM
Siu Lin Tao-1st section Pak Sao explanations
by futsaowingchun
11/09/14 10:30 PM
I spy kata bunkai..
by GojuRyuboy13
10/29/14 08:28 AM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/30/13 07:41 AM
Where Are They Now?
by Dobbersky
05/30/13 08:08 AM
MA style video library
by
03/22/06 03:18 PM
Recent Posts
unrecognized kata
by William_Bent
11/19/14 07:05 PM
I gained a lot of month in the last few months
by simonajones111
11/19/14 04:54 AM
Siu Lin Tao-3rd section applications
by futsaowingchun
11/13/14 06:48 PM
Screen fighting course UK December 2014
by charlie
11/11/14 04:09 PM
MA style video library
by charlie
11/11/14 04:05 PM
Siu Lin Tao-1st section Pak Sao explanations
by futsaowingchun
11/09/14 10:30 PM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/29/14 10:01 PM
I spy kata bunkai..
by GojuRyuboy13
10/29/14 08:28 AM
Forum Stats
22933 Members
36 Forums
35589 Topics
432521 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#107593 - 04/13/05 06:42 PM Back To Basics - Okinawan Karate Jutsu
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi Guys,

Im interested in formulating a simple, authentic training routine that covers authentic okinawan karate. Regarding kata I would be interested in your views of the best fundemental forms relevant to the following -

shorin (shuri and tomari) eg nahanchi 1

naha te eg sanchin

I have my own ideas but would like the opinion of any long term paractioners of okinawan shorin or goju ryu etc etc.

Also any aspects of training that you know are authentic, ie conditioning (junbi and hojo undo)? kumite methods? Zazen?


Look forward to your thoughts

[This message has been edited by UKshorinryu (edited 04-13-2005).]

[This message has been edited by UKshorinryu (edited 04-13-2005).]

[This message has been edited by UKshorinryu (edited 04-13-2005).]

Top
#107594 - 04/13/05 11:30 PM Re: Back To Basics - Okinawan Karate Jutsu
Anonymous
Unregistered


http://www.karate.org.yu/articles/article_outline_of_okinawan_karatedo.htm
This web page as a outline of how okinawan karate was generally taught, along with what forms were basic and advanced. I hope this helps you formulate a training routine. Good luck with it.

Top
#107595 - 04/14/05 02:26 AM Re: Back To Basics - Okinawan Karate Jutsu
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thankyou agenT,

the site certainly is usefull from the shorin side, also interested in naha te. Im looking to train in 3 forms from each school, and it would be most usefull if they taught the 'essence' of each school (ie shorin and naha te), and in a structured manner.

Really interested in anyone who has trained long term or teaches either shorin or gojus opinion.

Top
#107596 - 04/14/05 04:19 AM Re: Back To Basics - Okinawan Karate Jutsu
Anonymous
Unregistered


The essence for the Naha school would be sanchin. Although naifanchi was initially brought into Okinawa through the Naha school, it is no longer continued in that tradition (Goju-Uechi-Toon-Ruyei-Kojo(?) ryu). Somehow it ended up as basic kata for Shorin-ryu (Shuri-te & Tomari-te).
As I belong to the Naha line I will only comment regarding sanchin. In essence they are the same but the execution is different in the specific styles.
Goju : 2 versions Miyagi sanchin and Higaonna sanchin, Higaonna sanchin is the most authentic (although closed hands).
Toon : the Higaonna sanchin but I do not know open or closed hands.(Any Toon practitioners on the forum ?)
Uechi : open hand, resembles the most the sanchin kata currently practised in China
Ruyei : never seen it but should be comparable to Toon or Goju-Higaonna sanchin.
Take your pick.

Top
#107597 - 04/14/05 08:33 AM Re: Back To Basics - Okinawan Karate Jutsu
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thankyou for the reply CCV, what would you class as a sensible nahate kata to follow sanchin, I only want 3 from each 'family' to keep things simple but want to represent the styles within those 3 kata.

Interesting point about nahanchi being naha te in origin, although i think the flavour is definatly shorin.

Top
#107598 - 04/14/05 09:26 AM Re: Back To Basics - Okinawan Karate Jutsu
Anonymous
Unregistered


UKshorinryu.

From a Goju point of view (my style) I would say sesan or kururunfa. They encompas in my opinion fighting tactics and techniques typically 'Goju' to the fullest.
To represent Toon it would be sesan sanseru or pechurin, take your pick. To represent Uechi I think sesan. Their sanseru looks extremely difficult in execution and understanding. So I am talking a bit out of ignorance. From an historical point of view, Uechi and Toon ryu represent the karate from beginning of the 20th century. Miyagi and/or Higaonna have changed some open hand practises into close hand. Do not know about Ruyei ryu but there is a DVD available by Sakomoto (former WKF world champion kata) with 6 kata.

Top
#107599 - 04/14/05 09:35 AM Re: Back To Basics - Okinawan Karate Jutsu
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thanks again,

here begins my problemm ! I need to keep this simple and representative of simply 2 'schools' - shorin (shuri and tomari)and naha te (lets assume goju as it is best presented in the west), max 3 katas from each.

So you would recommend the following goju kata -

sanchin
sesan
kururunfa

In that order? You think these would represent the goju tradition well?

I really appriciate your views, many thanks

Top
#107600 - 04/14/05 10:01 AM Re: Back To Basics - Okinawan Karate Jutsu
Anonymous
Unregistered


not clear on what your long-term goal is.

Are you planning on creating your own Ryu?
or are you hand-picking techniques from the MA 'grab-bag' in the hopes of gaining an understanding in a shorter amount of time?

sorry if I'm speaking above my position, but I would think that some of the people that have trained for decades in a particular style would be more than slightly put-off by the thought of someone looking to capture the essence of a style by grabbing a few of it's kata. Knowing how to play a few Jimi Hendrix songs, doesn't mean you can 'hear Jimi'.

Top
#107601 - 04/14/05 11:37 AM Re: Back To Basics - Okinawan Karate Jutsu
Anonymous
Unregistered


kara-atama, thankyou for your question - you have no need to worry!

I am simply forming in my mind a simple yet authentic program to teach at a small dojo representing Okinawan Karate Jutsu as a whole (well shorin, naha te and bo).

My ideal is to teach okinawan karate in an authentic manner, and present both the shorin and naha te styles via the kata.

To back this up I aim to have qualified teachers deliver the technical instruction on each school.

The idea of three katas represents, white belt, green belt and brown belt - one kata of each school for each grade.

At shodan the student is free to follow either ryu as they prefer or continue with both.

I have trained in shito ryu to dan grade and feel that both schools have things to offer and aim - to get back to basics, I am currently training in shorin ryu and will be sarting goju ryu soon to ensure my own knowledge and skill level is correct.

The main emphasis is to get away from analytical analysis and focus on good, solid, basic okinawan karate - hojo undo, jubi undo, basic kyusho and Tuite will all be taught. I have never bought into the my style is better than yours, and my reasearch shows that the early 1900s okinawans didnt either, cross training was happening then!

Look forward to your input

[This message has been edited by UKshorinryu (edited 04-14-2005).]

Top
#107602 - 04/14/05 03:46 PM Re: Back To Basics - Okinawan Karate Jutsu
Anonymous
Unregistered


IMHO on Goju: Seisan for green-belt is a bit too advanced. perhaps Seiunchin or Saifa.

look for katas with bunkai which takes opponents off balence prior to striking.

thats my 2 pennies. good luck.

Top
#107603 - 04/14/05 04:54 PM Re: Back To Basics - Okinawan Karate Jutsu
Anonymous
Unregistered


Sanchin
Naihanchi Shodan
Kusanku

It is believed that Itosu took the best of all karate on okinawa when he created his forms Pinan shodan - godan

Top
#107604 - 04/14/05 05:15 PM Re: Back To Basics - Okinawan Karate Jutsu
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi UK,
If I had to choose three kata to showcase the Goju style they would be Sanchin,Seiyunchin,and Tensho.
Although considered a beginning kata now Tensho is really an advanced kata. In Tensho you have to have developed the ability to generate tremendous power in a very short distance.
These are just my opinions. I've been doing Goju for 14yrs.

Top
#107605 - 04/14/05 06:35 PM Re: Back To Basics - Okinawan Karate Jutsu
Multiversed Offline
Banned

Registered: 03/11/03
Posts: 642
Loc: Sa, Tx. USA
I don't know if I agree with what you're doing. It sounds like a diluted version of Isshin Ryu. At minimum, just with the Shorin part of it you would need to teach, IMO, Pinan Shodan, Naihanchi Shodan, Seisan, Passai Sho and Dai, Chinto, Kusanku (Mei/Dai/Sho/or Shiho) and Gojushiho.

There is just too much that'll be missed if you did any less than this. You need five kata, done immaculately, to get shodan in the system I train in (Pinan 1 and 2 [3-5 are supplemental], Naihanchi 1-2 and Seisan). For nidan you need to understand and be able to do without thought, Passai Sho and Dai, Naihanchi Sandan, Chinto and Gojushiho. That's five more done as perfect as you can do them. For sandan you need to perfect the remaining kata- Kusanku Mei, Rohai 1-2 and Hakutsuru.

You should also be able to do the supplemental forms Ananku, Wansu and the last three Pinan, but it isn't required.

I hope you know what you're doing. Perfecting kata, and the structure of a system takes diligence and years of mastery of those things you wish to transfer to your students. Rudimentary or basic knowledge or skills in something will result in an inability to properly transfer the things you don't know so well.

Good luck.

Top
#107606 - 04/14/05 08:26 PM Re: Back To Basics - Okinawan Karate Jutsu
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
UKShoinryu,

I'm afraid you're being too theoretical towards this.

There are many systems that have been combinations of the different Okinawan styles. For example most Tomari has been absorbed across various Shorin instrutors.

Isshinryu is one example, but it appears its structure was not based on pick and choose as much as including the different studies the instructor undertook, and perhaps discarding a few of them in the process. Unfortunately as nobody has any source documentation of the founders studies, all there is are various 2nd hand accounts.

But more so what you're describing already exists in Shito-ryu from Mabuni Sensei. Its potential curricula is very vast, but the purpose of the system (except for the instructor) isn't to know the whole system. That's an oversimplification.

If you really want to pursue your answer you'll need about 5 to 10 different instructors who really train you in each kata for about 10 years (I'm assuming you can compartementalize your life to do this simultaneously - difficult at best even if the instructors will consent to teach you).

Only at the point you are really internalizing those kata do you begin to know enough to make the choices you're suggesting, and I would suggest 20 years under knowledgeable instructors to get true in depth study to know what you're picking.

And I'm curious if after 20 years of non-stop study you'll really still want to pick and choose?

Thoughtfully,
Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu

[This message has been edited by Victor Smith (edited 04-14-2005).]

Top
#107607 - 04/14/05 09:24 PM Re: Back To Basics - Okinawan Karate Jutsu
Anonymous
Unregistered


It does sound like you are just re-packaging Mabuni Shito-Ryu into a McDojo.

good luck on your franchise business venture.

Top
#107608 - 04/15/05 12:51 AM Re: Back To Basics - Okinawan Karate Jutsu
Anonymous
Unregistered


from karatama -

It does sound like you are just re-packaging Mabuni Shito-Ryu into a McDojo.
good luck on your franchise business venture.

I will just ignore that comment and put it down to you having a bad day!

Multiversed,

thankyou for your considered thoughts. whilst I appriciate your view I think you are missing the whole point of what im trying to achieve, im not creating anything I just want to offer the basic, fundamental kata of okinawan karate to students. The sylabus is simple to allow greater depth of training within 6 kata (to shodan), then the students real training begins in whatever family they prefer. I aim to have expirienced supervision to ensure the technical detail is correct for goju and shorin ryu. I realise you are a self confessed 1 style practioner (and what a style!), and I respect that so I can understand your view.

Victor Smith,

thankyou for your considered thoughts, I agree with alot of what you say, however the point of the post was to ask more expierience MAists their view on 3 representative kata from shorin and goju to be used to introduce students to okinawan karate.

I think we can all agree that sanchin (goju) and naihanchi (shorin) both have very good principles to teach, you get my drift? I think we can theorise all day, get very detailed and correct about things - which is fine as instructors but im looking for real life, doable karate that is of benefit to students - surely it is better to learn a few kata well than many not so well?

I have been training for nearly 20 years, I started in shukokai (1st dan) and then Kenshikan shito ryu (1st dan) then the terrible beast that is karate politics ensured I left to practise other arts, which I did and enjoyed for nearly 5 years with absolutly no regrets. I have been back training soley in karate for a year or so, the art is really opening up to me now - im a little older and wiser!

Im not trying or presenting a 'new' style guys (im no where near qualified!) im simply presenting exisiting superb martial arts in a dojo under correct supervision from my seniors.

Sanchin,

thankyou for your suggestions. I do not agree with your comment re Itosu and the pinans and would prefer not to include them in my training. I am of the belief that they were developed as a simplification from superior forms and to be easy to learn in the okinawan school system. (perhaps 1 and 2 are a little different?)

sanchin31,

thankyou for your suggestions. I class tensho as a 'similair' form to sanchin, although it has its differences of course, and as such would prefer to use sanchin for what im doing, thats not devaluing tensho in any way. however I am looking for advice in this area from a broad spectrum of expieirienced MAists.

So guys lets make it simple

If you HAD to suggest 3 kata to best present the PRINCIPLES of shorin ryu (shuri and tomari) and Naha te (goju), the forms need to be taught in a structured manner to present the progression from white to green to brown belt what would they be?



[This message has been edited by UKshorinryu (edited 04-15-2005).]

Top
#107609 - 04/15/05 03:51 AM Re: Back To Basics - Okinawan Karate Jutsu
Anonymous
Unregistered


I take offence that Tomari Te always gets lumped together with Shuri Te!

Anyway, so what would be the "essence" of Tomari Te then?

I know of about 8 or so kata, then some ones known by the masters (Rinkan) and a few weapons that were practiced (Shirataru no Kon). Also, Tomari had their own Seisan.

Top
#107610 - 04/15/05 05:15 AM Re: Back To Basics - Okinawan Karate Jutsu
Anonymous
Unregistered


Its a fair point Mark Hill !

The reason I am 'grouping' the 2 familys together is simple logistics, it would be extremly difficult for me to recieve instruction in 'pure' tomari te (although I study matsubayashi). I think it is generally accepted that shuri and tomari are very close together, whereas the naha te does show distinct differences.

However I am an open minded MAist and would love to include 3 pure tomari te kata into the program, which would make 9 in total.

Would you advise me of any 'pure' tomari te styles and I can begin my research and look for instruction! However I believe that tomari te is now taught as part of shorin ryu as a norm?

Top
#107611 - 04/15/05 06:12 AM Re: Back To Basics - Okinawan Karate Jutsu
Anonymous
Unregistered


UKshorinryu - by approximating the essence of each Okinawan -Te, you/your students will be able to mimic each, but will be proficient in none. In 200 years do you think you are the first one to think of this? be honest with yourself. You are trying to package a product, not capture the essence of anything. Am I wrong?

Top
#107612 - 04/15/05 06:48 AM Re: Back To Basics - Okinawan Karate Jutsu
Anonymous
Unregistered


For representing Goju, wat is my motivation to pick sanchin - sesan - kururunfa?
Sanchin = basic training kata. Whenever their is a problem in executing certain movements in kata, my teachers refer me to sanchin to come up with the answer. So understanding sanchin is a must to understand the rest.
Sesan = is a common kata found in all major karate styles. The Naha form explains the basics of Naha fighting tactics and fighting techniques in accordance to maai (distance) and how to overcome it. It is also a good continuation on sanchin in used stances and striking techniques. Do not get fooled by the use of the closed fist, it can be changed into fingertip striking (like Southern Crane style) or keiko ken (Tiger style) or nukite as training purpose. It predominantly learns you how to strike and kick. The kata is also represented in Shuri and Tomari te, so a comparison can be part of the study.
Kururunfa is in my opinion the most beautifull kata there is but it is not my favourite (My execution lacks a lot of finesse, although I recently received the compliment that my opining was beatifull, so I am on the right track). It teaches how to grapple, how to work muchime (sticky hands) and how to break limbs, how to takedown. I believe that when fighting starts at close range, the application from kururunfa techniques will serve the best.
The current order in Goju gekisai - sanchin - saifa - seyunchin - shishochin - sanseru - sesan - sepai - kururunfa - suparinpei - tensho was established after WWII for having an organized method that teaches the entire curriculum of Goju. Before WWII (this coming mainly from an interview I read with Meitoku Yagi) the order would be sanchin - seyunchin - sesan -tensho. They are considered the base upon Goju can be interpreted. Without thourrough study of these kata, Goju can not be understood.
I agree to that statement, but only showing these kata will not encompas the entire style. Kururunfa does encompas all of Goju in my opinion. There are others that say suparinpei is the ultinmate Goju kata but in my opinion it is not.
Why not saifa. Saifa teaches sabaki and body shifting, very imported but not totally representive. Seyunchin teaches grappling and escape grapping, internal power (like sanchin but in grappling and short techniques in stead of striking) and training the shiko dachi. Sishochin/sanseru teach certain aspects but specifically to certain situations. Sepai is a real challange, but the techniques used are not 'direct' enough in my opinion. Leaves tensho, wich is very imported to cool down in Goju. You can start any kata but must end with tensho to let the energy you have builded up, flow out again. It encompasses total softness opposed to the hardness found in the other kata with summum sanchin (total hardness).
So, as representatives of my style I would show sanchin - sesan -kururunfa as synthetis of the style. But if you wish an thorough understanding of Goju-ryu you need at least 15 years of 5d/week training the kata curriculum with much focus on sanchin -seyunchin - sesan - tensho + regular training the other kata's to learn specific figthing strategies and techniques.

Top
#107613 - 04/15/05 06:54 AM Re: Back To Basics - Okinawan Karate Jutsu
Anonymous
Unregistered


from kara-atama,

UKshorinryu - by approximating the essence of each Okinawan -Te, you/your students will be able to mimic each, but will be proficient in none. In 200 years do you think you are the first one to think of this? be honest with yourself. You are trying to package a product, not capture the essence of anything. Am I wrong?


Again I thankyou for an interesting response, much nicer that the previous.

You have a point however I do disagree, I have trained in many dojos that make many claims and very rarely am I impressed or convinced that the dojos students are 'proficient' in anything let alone a particular style.

My personal view is that the kata existed before the breakout of shuri, tomari and naha te. And many okinawan martial artists learned many things from each of the schools, I have had some expierience of this within my own training (shito ryu and shorin ryu.)

I have seen alot of technical, analytical mumbo jumbo being taught in many dojos, which takes the students focus away from simple, hard karate training, my 'program' is to simply train students in okinawan karate, its emphasis is much more toward the manner in which we train as opposed to the techinicall correctness (although this has its place.)

I fully respect the styles, and due to being realsitic I have the oppertunity to present shorin and goju ryu - which I think gives a relativly rounded view of okinawan karate, and am simply asking for advice and direction from other okinawan karate practioners before I make my decision to try and 'formulate' the program.

My program is based on an aproximate time of commited training of minamum 4years to shodan, the gradings (if I have any!) will be taken by qualified representatives of shorin and goju and myself, and only to shodan. The dan grade system is rather unreliable in karate after all?

the students can then choose their own paths and contribute to the dojo as they see fit, my own personal studies into shorin and goju will continue till I drop (I like to just think of it as okinawan karate).

I anticipate a minamum fee will be charged to a small group of students (to cover dojo, equipment and guest instructor from shorin and goju ryu), I am fortunate in that I do not intend or need to make money from martial arts.

Please note that I intend to 'create' nothing, 'change' nothing and claim 'nothing', I am comftorable in what I am doing and hope what I teach is of use to the students, but most importantly represents okinawan karate before its 'modernisation', ie segregation into different styles and commercialisation.

I realise that this is a life long journey, I will make mistakes and will continue to learn, im personaly looking forward to the journey.


I hope that helps you understand my motivation and you can assist in my decisions in the spirit of martial arts.


[This message has been edited by UKshorinryu (edited 04-15-2005).]

Top
#107614 - 04/15/05 07:10 AM Re: Back To Basics - Okinawan Karate Jutsu
Anonymous
Unregistered


CCV,

Thankyou for your superb response, the information is most interesting, particulary the remark on goju kata taught before 'modernisation'

ie

sanchin seyunchin sesan tensho

It looks like I may need to increase the kata to 4 for each ryu to shodan. This is not an issue and would allow better presentation of each ryu, but I would certainly not wish to introduce any more before shodan.

It is worth noting that i am not trying to encapture the whole system, but to introduce students to okinawan karate a sa whole.

My knowledge of sesan is poor, you say that it is representative of all the schools as opposed to simply goju (variations to one side). I am aware that it is taught within shorin ryu as well.

It may be that I present 3 kata from shorin, 3 kata from goju and sesan as the shodan kata?

This would leave sanchin, seyunchin,tensho representing naha te to brown belt. I have trained for many years in all of these forms (except sesan).

once again thankyou for your response

[This message has been edited by UKshorinryu (edited 04-15-2005).]

Top
#107615 - 04/15/05 08:06 AM Re: Back To Basics - Okinawan Karate Jutsu
Anonymous
Unregistered


UKshorinryu,
I did not say that sesan is representative for all 3 styles just that all major karate styles have a sesan version.
Although simularities are obvious, the hangetsu/sesan is quite different from the Goju sesan and again different from the Ueichi sesan and so forth.
Comparing a Shorin sesan with a Shorei sesan is worth the study, but still needs to learn at least 2 sesan versions.

Top
#107616 - 04/15/05 09:17 AM Re: Back To Basics - Okinawan Karate Jutsu
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thanks for the explaination UKshorinryu, I was wrong. sorry for being abrasive.

Top
#107617 - 04/15/05 09:20 AM Re: Back To Basics - Okinawan Karate Jutsu
Anonymous
Unregistered


My misunderstanding CCV, thankyou for pointing that out.

I will study both forms and see for myself then I can begin to make some decisions. i will also consult my instructors for their informed input.

It would seem that many kata are studied by the different systems, with emphasis minnor/major differences. Through choice I would want to avoid these forms (only at the begining stages of students training ie to shodan) and present only specific naha te and specific shorin kata, as I have said after that the student can train in whatever they choose with specifc style instructors, or simply keep to the program I offer.

[This message has been edited by UKshorinryu (edited 04-15-2005).]

Top
#107618 - 04/15/05 09:35 AM Re: Back To Basics - Okinawan Karate Jutsu
Anonymous
Unregistered


no problem kara-atama,

thats the problem with forums, its difficult to paint the whole picture and easy to jump to conclusions.

I welcome your input into my little 'project'

Top
#107619 - 04/15/05 11:43 AM Re: Back To Basics - Okinawan Karate Jutsu
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
UK, I believe you should learn real matsubayashi, if you did you would realize the purpose of its kata curriculum and not remove such important kata. To grade a person to shodan with only 3 shorin kata is irresponsible at best. You study matsubayashi, yet you don't know your history. Nagamine learned Rohai, Wankan, Wanshu, and Passai from Iha Kodatsu, a top student of Kosaku Matsumora. Kosaku and Oyadomari were the leading exponents of Tomari Te, which is different from Shuri Te, however, does share many similarities. The problem with what you suggest is that it will be impossible for your students to develop the proper understanding if you leave out all but three shorin kata. If you believe otherwise you are fooling yourself. There is no short cut in karate. If you want your students to be well rounded then get real teachers who teach real karate, the entire curriculum. There are a few good okinawan ryuha. Enlist legit teachers of one of them to teach shorin. Do the same for okinawan goju. Yes it will take several years, but that is what it takes to become a yudansha. Yes it will take hard work to earn a legit dan grade in each style, but that is what it takes. And I am not even going to get into the fact that I believe that the principles in shorin and goju are so different you will not be able to develop properly by studying both styles at the same time. There is no short cut.

Top
#107620 - 04/15/05 05:32 PM Re: Back To Basics - Okinawan Karate Jutsu
Anonymous
Unregistered


medulanet,

your opinion is most valued, however i do think you are missing my point. I train and will continue to train in matsubayashi, its a superb ryu and i have a superb sensei.However I fully respect naha te and know the style has alot to offer as well.

The 'project' is to give new students a solid overview of naha te and shorin ryu, then when they have an understanding be able to choose there own destiny.

However on reflection I am going to hold my thoughts and concentrate on matsubayashi, whilst researching more (primarily training methods), you do have a fair point regarding the differences between the styles making it very difficult to learn let alone teach.

I am learning matsubayashi history and it is a rich one with a superb pedigree, i look forward to my continuation with the style.

Thankyou all for your views, it is appriciated. I will now consider this thread closed.

Im not sure if mods can remove the thread but if so please do.

Top
#107621 - 04/15/05 05:44 PM Re: Back To Basics - Okinawan Karate Jutsu
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by UKshorinryu:
Its a fair point Mark Hill !

The reason I am 'grouping' the 2 familys together is simple logistics, it would be extremly difficult for me to recieve instruction in 'pure' tomari te (although I study matsubayashi). I think it is generally accepted that shuri and tomari are very close together, whereas the naha te does show distinct differences.

However I am an open minded MAist and would love to include 3 pure tomari te kata into the program, which would make 9 in total.

Would you advise me of any 'pure' tomari te styles and I can begin my research and look for instruction! However I believe that tomari te is now taught as part of shorin ryu as a norm?

[/QUOTE]


You can't really. I am bit of history buff, and tried to find if there was. Goju master Sekichi Iha used to teach Tomari Te as a seperate stream. People under him may have the system intact.

I will give you two web adresses of organisations which teach Tomari Te in their systems:
http://www.wonhoploongchuan.com/wonhoploongchuan/pfdHistory.php3
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Bleachers/6758/hakutsuru_menu.htm

Top
#107622 - 04/15/05 06:05 PM Re: Back To Basics - Okinawan Karate Jutsu
Anonymous
Unregistered


thanks for that, excellent sites.

It makes interesting reading and i will have a good look through in the morning!

As I said previously I have decided to research but not proceed with my 'project' for the time being.

However good information to okinawan karat eis always interesting!

Top
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >


Moderator:  Cord, MattJ, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Ryukyu Art
Artifacts from the Ryukyu Kingdom missing since WWII. Visit www.ShisaLion.Org to view pictures

Best Stun Guns
Self Defense Products-stun guns, pepper spray, tasers and more

Surveillance 4U
Complete surveillance systems for covert operations or secure installation security

Asylum Images
Book presents photo tour of the Trans-Allegany Lunatic Asylum. A must if you're going to take a ghost tour!

 



Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga