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#107562 - 04/16/05 07:05 PM Re: Animal names for kata?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by CVV:
The article assumes things I do not always agree with but the sources from where it makes these conclusions are taken in high regard by most of the karate society (McCarthy Bisshop Meitoku Yagi ...). I have my reserves in identifying Xie Zhong Ziang as Ru Ru Ko since Seko Higa, Meitoku Yagi, Seikichi Toguchi descibe him as an 'old man'. Also the quan he thaught are not found in Goju.
Regarding the Japanification, I have a intresting story. I talked regarding Okinawa kobudo with Takeshi Uchiage shihan. His father, Kenzo Uchiage, trained with a sort of chain while he was a young man. Miyagi sensei told him that this kind of training was not worthy a 'Bushi'. So I guess he was very attentive to what his students would portray, making sure it would not damage the image for the Japanese.
[/QUOTE]


Interestingly enough, there is another tradition which maintains Ru Ru Ko was a place, not a person.

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#107563 - 04/16/05 07:21 PM Re: Animal names for kata?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I heard he was a person named after the place.

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#107564 - 04/17/05 01:40 PM Re: Animal names for kata?
Anonymous
Unregistered


CXT,
regarding what Aragaki thaught Higaonna.

When puzling with the pieces of information I have I come to this.

Funakoshi states that Ason thaught Shorei ryu in Naha. He also states that Wai Xingxiang thought Shorei ryu to Higaonna.
From Miyagi we know that Goju-ryu descendet from a style inhereted from Fuzhou and introduced in Naha around 1828. Aragaki has demonstrated kata with simular names known in Goju to the last Sapposhi (it is throught this mission Norisato received an introduction with Ru Ru Ko through an attache of Sapposhi Zhao Xing).
Regarding kata, Motobu Choki wrote that sanchin seisan seiunchin pechurin are from China and handed down from the old RyuKyu Kingdom (so from before 1879, Higaonna returned in 1882).

With this information, I think that most of the curriculum of Goju-ryu was already present before Higaonna started his training and was introduced throug Ason and Wai Xing Xiang. Ru Ru Ko was acquinted with Wai Xing Xiang. Wai Xing Xian was linked with the Kojo dojo in Fuzhou and knew both Aragaki and Kojo. Aragaki introduced Higaonna to the Shorei style and Higaonna was eventually given the chance to study in China, initially by Wai Xing Xian and later by Ru Ru Ko. I think that his study was a continuation of what he was learning in Okinawa and not Whooping Crane chuan fa. He is also called the restorer of the Naha school/tradition, and I do not believe that he would have done it with a new curriculum of kata.
However this is my personnel view and is in no way conclusive and still open to debate.

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#107565 - 04/18/05 11:04 AM Re: Animal names for kata?
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
CVV

Thanks!

Honestly that would be my conclusion also.

That the Naha arts are somehow interrelated is clear.
Even the orignal Sanchin kata of Higashionna seems to have been more like Uechi-Ryu than the current closed fist version.

It would make sense that Argaki would send Higashionna to study with people or groups that taught HIM and so forth.

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#107566 - 04/19/05 06:37 AM Re: Animal names for kata?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Marc Hill, Sanchin31
Could you further explain the link Ru Ru Ko and a place ? I've not yet encountered that theory.

An anacdote around Kururunfa. I was once told that, if somebody would ask the origin of kururunfa I could give this explenation.
In China there is a mountain region called Kururoa wich enspired many poets. The kata is from that region and indicates the place.

Next I was told the story is not true, but I could tell this story since nobody knows anyway where the kata comes from.

Maybe Japanese like to create myths.

[This message has been edited by CVV (edited 04-19-2005).]

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#107567 - 04/19/05 06:48 AM Re: Animal names for kata?
Anonymous
Unregistered


myths are just human nature.

I recently read but can't find the reference (Mark Bishop?) saying that 'Ru Ru Ko' could mean 'older brother' and it was theorized perhaps 'Ru Ru Ko' is the older brother of 'Wai Xing Xiang'?

not sure if I recall that correctly, if I find the quote I'll correct and reference.

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