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#107499 - 04/26/05 03:25 AM Re: Matsubayashi forms
Anonymous
Unregistered


no offence taken at all Multiverseed, its only karate after all !

I will have a think about some of the points you raise, appriciate your thoughts on this matter.

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#107500 - 04/26/05 03:37 AM Re: Matsubayashi forms
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Well the horizontal fist form is one.[/QUOTE]
So you think the fist should be rotated? 45 or full twist?(me thinks 45or 3/4)


[QUOTE]The straight back leg in zenkutsu is another.[/QUOTE]
The foot being pointed forward or leg locked?
[QUOTE]No recentering with steps and little body-change. No Naihanchi stance in Naihanchi,[/QUOTE]
Agree.

[QUOTE]crossing the arms at the midline, coming up to your shoulder to down-block,[/QUOTE] I thought these were done for a purpose? i.e. Coming up to shoulder was strike on incoming punch arm.


[QUOTE] bending the thumb with knifehands as well as placing the guard hand in shuto strikes palm up (why?). Doing knifehands starting at the head instead of out in front of you. No use of hips in many kata meaning not gammaku or koshi movement, but a forward lifting of pelvis at tanden to facilitate Ti techs. Chambering during "promise sparring". Ingrains bad habits like sparring too much.[/QUOTE] Agree. These are sport versions practiced and shown as the real deal! pffft...

[This message has been edited by SANCHIN31 (edited 04-26-2005).]

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#107501 - 04/26/05 06:04 AM Re: Matsubayashi forms
Anonymous
Unregistered


no offense taken at all...this is great stuff. Like always, I'm having trouble visualizing some text to form.

The theme of what you are saying is basically the japanization of many basic technique (eg school-boy karate). The fukyu katas were designed for school-boys so no surprize there, I'm assuming you are not talking about those. but I get your point of those bad habits being incorporated into the more traditional kata.

[QUOTE]Well the horizontal fist form is one.[/QUOTE]
agreed. 3/4 - vertical punches make more sense and help keep the elbow and shoulder down into a better alignment.
[QUOTE]
The straight back leg in zenkutsu is another[/QUOTE]
I haven't figured out a way to stop recoil on impact with this leg bent. I keep it slightly bent, and on impact I straighten. also, zenkutsu is generally taught too long and low.
[QUOTE]No recentering with steps and little body-change.[/QUOTE]
can't visualize what you mean. I'm guessing you mean the robotic quality in stance transition you see in kyu grades.
[QUOTE]Naihanchi stance in Naihanchi[/QUOTE]
I haven't learned this yet. looks like kiba-dachi. there are probably subtleties I'm not yet aware of.
[QUOTE]crossing the arms at the midline, coming up to your shoulder to down-block[/QUOTE]just a learning tool...should not be done this way later in training. more boy-stuff.
[QUOTE]No use of hips in many kata meaning not gammaku or koshi movement[/QUOTE]
I agree there is not enough emphasis on this until post-shodan. some people never get it. it would help to teach it earlier to losen up hips. learning how to dance helped my white-ass. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

Appreciating the replies...

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#107502 - 04/26/05 03:40 PM Re: Matsubayashi forms
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Multiversed:
Well the horizontal fist form is one.[/QUOTE]

A "horizontal fist" is not really taught. In Matsubayashi the elbow is kept down and focus is placed in the index knuckle. For most people it will be almost impossible to have a horizontal fist with this structure. There is no ratial of fist rotation taught witht he normal punch. Done properly the fist will not be rotated completely horizontal to the ground. If you did that your elbow would be "out" too much and you would have a weak structure.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Multiversed:
The straight back leg in zenkutsu is another.[/QUOTE]

The back leg in zenkutsu dachi is not supposed to be straight. Again, bad structure. If you look at the book Nagamine's back leg is not completely straight and this stance should never have a completely straight back leg.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Multiversed:
No recentering with steps and little body-change.[/QUOTE]

In Matsubayashi we always recenter. We, however, do not force it with "cresent or circular stepping." In Matsubayashi we use gravity to move, not muscular power. We do not push off to walk, but rather bend the knee of one leg and step quickly with the other. By bending at the knee you re-center your weight over the bent leg, then you step, once the other leg makes contact with the ground you weight shifts once more adding body weight and power to your technique and centering your weight over both legs.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Multiversed:
No Naihanchi stance in Naihanchi,[/QUOTE]

What do you mean, we practice naihanchi stance? Feet facing slightly inward or directly forward, knees bent, etc.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Multiversed:
crossing the arms at the midline,[/QUOTE]

This is all about guarding and deflecting. First hand (inside) parries, second hand (outside) strikes. This also helps to guard the midline.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Multiversed:
coming up to your shoulder to down-block,[/QUOTE]

It is not that your bring your arm to your shoulder. The key to Matsubayashi is drawing in and exploding out. When down blocking you draw your elbow in with your arm bent at about a 90 degree angle. When sinking into the stance and using your koshi the arm whips around like a weight attached to a string. The fist only hits the shoulder due to this action.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Multiversed:
placing the guard hand in shuto strikes palm up (why?).[/QUOTE]

Guard hand palm up is so that you can attack and utilize rotation of the fist while punching, as well as eliminating unnecessary tension in the arm. It also allows you to trap your opponent's arm against your body while your strike. A palm up position enables a tighter "lock" than a palm down position.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Multiversed:
Doing knifehands starting at the head instead of out in front of you.[/QUOTE]

What do you mean? How do you perform a knife hand starting at the head?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Multiversed:
No use of hips in many kata meaning not gammaku or koshi movement, but a forward lifting of pelvis at tanden to facilitate Ti techs.[/QUOTE]

Again, this has to do with the way in which we center ourselves when we step. The second centering I mentioned earlier is what you are describing.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Multiversed:
Chambering during "promise sparring". Ingrains bad habits like sparring too much.[/QUOTE]

That is only basic. When actually training the Yakusoku Kumite it is very different from what you have been exposed to.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Multiversed:
There are others, but for the most part it is a solid style. Oh and don't place too much emphasis on jiyu kumite beyond 3rd kyu, it will limit your karate.[/QUOTE]

Actually, as one advances more the main emphasis rather than sparring is on two man
drills, as it should be.

MV, although you have taken the style, I think your teacher was from the first group of students I mentioned. A product of misinformation and misinterpretation.

[This message has been edited by medulanet (edited 04-26-2005).]

[This message has been edited by medulanet (edited 04-26-2005).]

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#107503 - 04/26/05 04:09 PM Re: Matsubayashi forms
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by medulanet:
MV, although you have taken the style, I think your teacher was from the first group of students I mentioned. A product of misinformation and misinterpretation.
[/QUOTE]

hey ...you should find out who people are before you start insulting. before you get pummeled by a response, I just figured I'd give you a chance to look up and find out the name of the person you just dismissed. Then you should probably appologize. Don't ask me... find out yourself.

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#107504 - 04/26/05 07:14 PM Re: Matsubayashi forms
Multiversed Offline
Banned

Registered: 03/11/03
Posts: 642
Loc: Sa, Tx. USA
Med': I would agree that the dojo I trained in which was under both Shoshin Nagamine's charter (he visited our dojo in fact) and Eihachi Ota's later, tended to emphasize jiyu kumite and that things may have changed since then.

Like I said I have seen quite a few Matsubayashi guys and gals and they were decent, much better than your average kenpo-/karate-ka.

As for the shuto-uchi clarification, when I say towards your head I mean away from the opponent then back towards him like a pimp slap. That's the way they taught it to me. Same with Shorinkan, but now I know it makes little sense.

Medulanet, brother, I don't doubt you're awesome. Your posts are always spot-on and you have been a great ally to me on this site. I am in love with the whole Okinawan karate concept and if I point out differences understand I'm trying to understand.

Have a great week and good training to everyone!

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#107505 - 04/26/05 08:58 PM Re: Matsubayashi forms
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Don't worry MV, maybe its from wrestling, football, or fighting kung fu and boxing cats in high school who did not believe my karate would work, I like to defend my points vehemently. In terms of the shuto uke's we draw the elbow in as we pivot our body. Then the elbow drives the block out. It does appear to be a slapping motion. There are really three things happening here. First the hand coming back can be used to parry an incoming strike when used with tai sabaki. Second the elbow which drives the block can be used to attack and jam and incoming attack or as an elbow strike. Third the shuto extends and strikes with the bone at the "heel" of the hand. Due to driving the elbow the hand is turned and comes out almost tilted 45 degrees with his "heel" of the palm leading. Like I said earlier the attack that is parried can be trapped with the guard hand that is coming up palm up.

I do forget that there are other ways of doing things, its just I have grown so fond of the principles and philosophies that I have learned. I too have seen good Matsubayashi karateka, but unfortunately I have seen piss poor Matsubayashi karateka and I'm sometimes too quick to file people I have never seen in the latter rather than the former. I too must keep an open mind.

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#107506 - 04/27/05 01:40 AM Re: Matsubayashi forms
Anonymous
Unregistered


great post guys !

Im not going to enter technical debate on matsubayashi, as im not qualified. Can I just remind us all that there are good, bad, superb and awful practioners of all styles - yes even orthadox shorin ryu! Thats called life!

What were discussing here is the actual matsubayashi style and mechanics, not the practioners.

I really appriciate the comments so far.

Personally I find the style very suitiable for my body type and am enjoying the mobile approach to karate that we emphasise, I love the power generation and the development of 'shocking' power in strikes, my history is in shukokai and shito ryu,and these would seem to be very similair to matsubayashi and im sure shorin ryu in general.



[This message has been edited by UKshorinryu (edited 04-27-2005).]

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