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#107489 - 04/21/05 11:27 AM Re: Matsubayashi forms
Alejandro Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/02/02
Posts: 940
Loc: Las Cruces, NM USA
Dan_66:

In Okinawan Karate, kata is where "real fighting", self preservation, is learned. Kumite, literally "grappling with ones hands" refers to any time two people apply techniques with one another, in a controlled or free format. In true karate, kata and kumite cannot exist without each other; they coexist. Principles learned from kata are applied in kumite, or two man drills. Jiju Kumite (free sparring) is an important tool as well, but is just that: a tool. One must not free spar to achieve the end of becoming better at free sparring, the way most modern schools teach kumite, but simply to internalize and perfect the techniques and principles learned from kata.

So in karate, if you aren't learning the combat from kata, then I fear you aren't learning combat at all; the connection between kata and kumite is lost. I'm not saying anything bad about Shotokan, it is great for what it's worth. I highly recommend, however, that you do some serious research into Okinawan Karate.

-Al

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#107490 - 04/21/05 12:38 PM Re: Matsubayashi forms
Anonymous
Unregistered


Kintama:
I see what you are saying.
I was asked to look at something and give my opinion. Thats all I did. What I saw in a very short time looking at those clips did not impress me thats all.
Comparing what we see to what we do is reasonable in my opinion, if I were to train with the school in question I would learn different ways of seeing things which is what a true ma should do. Open your mind to new interpritations.

If I had an explanation for why the techniques are done that way, and the purpose of the high stances aposed to lower stances. Forget the real fighting scenario, Kata is kata and sparing is sparing, you will move differently for each you can use the same technique differenty. The kata is the formal exersie sparing is the realalistic exercise.

What I was looking at in those clips were I thought a formal kata and that is what I based my opinion on.
AS mentioned If I trained in the style I would understand more about it and why it is done that way, I may still choose to disagree, I will take the parts I can use combined with what I already know to improve myself as a person and MA.

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#107491 - 04/24/05 07:19 AM Re: Matsubayashi forms
Anonymous
Unregistered


This is an interesting conversation between the person who performed the kata in these videos I posted (Jim Sindt), on a forum recently.
I'm including it in this thread, so you can read his own words.
http://www.all-karate.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=387

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#107492 - 04/24/05 06:01 PM Re: Matsubayashi forms
Multiversed Offline
Banned

Registered: 03/11/03
Posts: 642
Loc: Sa, Tx. USA
Do you Matsubayashi guys do your Shutos like Mr. Sindt, with the thumb bent on the forward hand and the fingers slightly bent in general? Bad form.

Matsubayashi is good karate for the most part. Most Shorin Ryu is good karate. There is a lot that karate folks don't understand about biomechanics and anatomy, and that's what's missing from a lot of the explanations for "why" karate people do what they do- long/wide stances, lifting the back foot when punching, turning the fist to the horizontal, straightening the back leg, etc.- but it's understandable and it's all cool.

I would choose Matsubayashi over Shotokan anyday and I think that the way Funakoshi did his original karate befoe he "refined it" for the Japanese was very, very similar to the way Nagamine taught Shorin. Short stances AND kata are for fighting, everyone who knows how to fight knows this.

I have seen a few Matsubayahsi guys that needed to work on their karate. It just looked waki-waki as Nagamine's son likes to say. It's neither here nor there. The unfortunate thing about learning the wrong way is that the student will pick up on the sensei's bad habits and mistakes and do them because they think it's the right way. I've seen it with Matsumura guys too, doing a kata a certain way because that's the way Soken did it when he was 85 or something. Just stupid. How did Soken do it when he was 55? That would be the form to emulate.

Those mistakes that Dan pointed out look to be misinterpretations of movements by the student (Sindt). Matsubayashi does do some silly things inherently, due to drift, but it is a good style if taught the right way.

These kata pale in comparison to the more Orthodox forms. It looks like schoolboy kata. Maybe that's why Sindt now does McCarthy's Koryu Uchinadi, which is still, but looks less like schoolboy karate.. Later...

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#107493 - 04/24/05 07:24 PM Re: Matsubayashi forms
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
MV, you are largely correct in terms of Matsubayashi guys who just don't get it, there are quite a few. First off it is important to understand why most Matsubayashi guys perform their technique the way they do. There are basically two groups of Matsubayashi karateka. The first group are military men who trained in okinawa in the 60's and 70's and those trained by guys like Ansei Ueshiro, Eihachi Ota, etc. At that time people trained hard everyday and received black belts in 2 or 3 years. They usually then branched out on their own to start dojos because there were not many at that time. Unfortunately they learned very little of true karate due to misinterpretation. Unfortunately it is very hard to learn something from someone that does not speak the same language that you do. Okinawans would refer to natural tension caused by proper structure and an american would interpret that as tightening of muscles. In addition many okinawans did not realize that many of the americans wanted to learn deeper than they had been taught and only covered basics. Many advanced unbalancing/borrowing balance, tuite, in fighting, throwing, etc were not taught in the short time that most americans trained in okinawan or even with the okinawans who came to america. In addition most of the okinawans who came to america were talented but very young. Ansei Ueshiro was in his early 30's, Ota was in his 20s, Oshiro was in his 20s, even when Takayoshi Nagamine came to go to school he was in his late twenties. These okinawans were young, liked kumite, and liked to teach americans what they wanted to know, not necessarily "true karate." I heard a story of an American who went to okinawa for "advanced training" and when asked by Nagamine to write an essay he refused and said I came here to train, not to write. Although he was graded to a high degree of black belt anyway how enthusiastic do you think the okinawans would be about teaching him "true karate." Most of the main teachers of karate these days are from this group of Matsubayashi practitioners. Many of them are still "stuck" in the 1960s and 1970s. There are students of Ueshiro who say to this day they perform their kata a certain way because Ueshiro did it the same way in 1960. Thats insane. Ueshiro was good, but he was not the best. In fact Chotoku Omine was one of the best and Nagamine sent him to replace Ueshiro, but many Americans rejected him and he died a few years after this appointment.

Now the second school of thought is practiced by a few Matsubayashi practitioners. These karateka were influenced in the 90s by okinawans who started to realize why americans were performing their technique the way they were and attempted to fix it. This group started to study indepth with the okinawans and really learn "true Matsubayashi." I originally learned from the first school and wanted more. I then learned from an exceptional karateka and teacher and all the questions I had were answered. The manner in which I was taught I am able to improve on my own without direct supervision, and I travel back to train with this teacher as often as possible.

MV, again, I don't know who you have seen perform Matsubayashi but I assume they did not do it right just because of the odds. There are so few who do, I personally was lucky and feel that I won the lottery everday I train.

MV you hit it on the nail. Sindt is like I said Okay, but the statement that since an Okinawan did it he does it also insane. Why would someone emulate bad form? If you can explain why you do what you do is one thing, but if you cannot then you missed the boat. That is probably why he went to McCarthy, he missed the boat. The key is to learn the principles and apply them to your own karate. A lot of what McCarthy learned he probably learned from Nagamine, I know they knew each other and shared info. I'd rather get it from the source. In Matsubayashi shutos the hand is held with fingers together and straight, wrist straight and aligned properly.

And MV, I would like to know the "silly inherent" things in Matsubayashi. May be I can educate you or you can educate me.

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#107494 - 04/24/05 08:28 PM Re: Matsubayashi forms
Anonymous
Unregistered


Great info! I hope to see this thread stay alive longer...

From what I know of the Matsubayashi that I have recently started is that it does seem to fall into a category which medulanet decribed. Mr. Scaglione was a full-time NY policeman while training with Ueshiro in the 60's/70's (and perhaps intermittently until Sensei Ueshiro's death).

Some of the changes of philosophy in fighting I am finding interesting and looking into. I am no where near being able to comment, but it is extreamly helpful to hear your views.

Disproportionate long stances, sloppy hands, artificial snap, using muscle tension in place of structual tourque, noninterpretable movement to bunkai - These all seem to be common misrepresentations of the essence.
Luckily, I was not taught those habits while in Goju, and it is becoming increasingly clear to me, that now is never a good time to adopt those habits in Shorin.

Thankyou all again...keep 'em coming!

p.s. does anyone know if Ueshiro ever published anything? books,video? or maybe even footage of him?

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#107495 - 04/25/05 08:19 AM Re: Matsubayashi forms
Anonymous
Unregistered


I am Glad to see that people still discuss the videos that where put on the Rainer Buckenīs website.
I never claimed to be a master of Matsubayashi-Ryu but like i wrote on the other forum, Nagamine Shoshin Sensei taught me the kata and graded me in Okinawa so I must have been doing something right.
Yes there are mistakes in the Kata...offcause, but I canīt be bothers by people who says; this is not the right way to perform and bla bla lba. This is the way I learned it and the way I perform matsubayshi-ryu.
Several of the Okinawans I have trained with did and probaly still do the kata very different from each other.

To comment Medulanet why I started training with McCarthy Sensei. Well we all have different goals with our training and we all look for different things in what we practise, what I was looking for I found with McCarthy Sensei.
And no McCarthy Sensei is or where not a Student of the late Nagamine Sensei, and certainly not the one McCarthy Sensei learned "everything" from.

Anyway, the several thousand downloads from all over the world speaks for them self. Iīm not a part of any matsubayashi-ryu Organisation anymore and the videos are only on the net so people can see one persons interpretaion of Shorin-Ryu.
If you donīt like my "form" donīt download it and post your own.

P.s sorry about the poor English.

In the art,

Jim R Sindt www.koryu-uchinadi.dk

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#107496 - 04/25/05 12:38 PM Re: Matsubayashi forms
Anonymous
Unregistered


{forum gets uncomfortably silent} lol
.
.
.
Thanks Mr Sindt. I think constructive critique is always a good thing, and of course not to be taken personal.

Good Luck with the new training.

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#107497 - 04/25/05 04:49 PM Re: Matsubayashi forms
Anonymous
Unregistered


Multiversed,

Im genuinly interested in the following comment you made -

'Matsubayashi does do some silly things inherently, due to drift'

could you expand a little as its the style of karate I study and im most interested, you obviously seem very expierienced in shorin ryu.



[This message has been edited by UKshorinryu (edited 04-25-2005).]

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#107498 - 04/26/05 12:47 AM Re: Matsubayashi forms
Multiversed Offline
Banned

Registered: 03/11/03
Posts: 642
Loc: Sa, Tx. USA
Well the horizontal fist form is one. The straight back leg in zenkutsu is another. No recentering with steps and little body-change. No Naihanchi stance in Naihanchi, crossing the arms at the midline, coming up to your shoulder to down-block, bending the thumb with knifehands as well as placing the guard hand in shuto strikes palm up (why?). Doing knifehands starting at the head instead of out in front of you. No use of hips in many kata meaning not gammaku or koshi movement, but a forward lifting of pelvis at tanden to facilitate Ti techs. Chambering during "promise sparring". Ingrains bad habits like sparring too much.

There are others, but for the most part it is a solid style. Oh and don't place too much emphasis on jiyu kumite beyond 3rd kyu, it will limit your karate.

Just opinions. Hope I didn't offend.

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