Recently a friend of ours , who is a Sensei in Judo, Shotokan and Wado Ryu,(and real traditional) asked to come by and train with us. I was showing him a stick disarm that he really liked. I told him it was in his kata and showed him where. He had no idea. His Sensei did not do any kind of Bunkai or interpretation of kata. They only did a few kata anyway(I did find this strange as I thought Shotokan was very kata oriented)and did not practice Bunkai. This is not a knock on Shotokan, it is just they way they trained, they were more Kumite oriented. The Sensei really liked the 'link' I showed him and asked to come back and me share some Bunkai with him.

I took a kata that we both knew, and told him to look for the similarities in what we did, not differences. I told him to do his version of the kata, and I mine. I counted out the movements and had him freeze frame each movement. A simple outward block, I would punch him and let him block, grab his wrist and have him release the grip, grab his Gi and have him knock off the hand or take a wrist lock, I even kicked and had him use the outward block. I did this for every movement of the kata. He really enjoyed this, then I started putting movements together. It was great seeing him catch on and use his kata. It was a great experience for me as I got to see another translation or another movement for the same kata, so I was learning as well. It was a great experience, he got introduced to Bunkai and interpretation, I various different movements for the movements I knew, it was a really good time, and learning experince.

Sensei had a friend and told him about the process that we used and suggested his friend come by and do the same. The friend was Matsmura Orthodox, Shorin Ryu. When he came over, I told him the exact same thing, look for similarities, and do HIS VERSION of the kata. We got started and I counted out the first movement and he corrected me on the movement. He was an early Black Belt, and anxious to tell me I was doing things all wrong. I tried to explain we were each doing our version of the form, and he still kept telling me that my movements were wrong. I suggested we change kata since he was having a hard time seeing similarities. We tried another and the same result, we never got to Bunkai because he kept telling me his form was the right way, and my movements were wrong, therefore no interpretation I had could be THE RIGHT ONE. I tired one more kata but still no luck. I hate to come accross arrogant but I was wating my time, and my paitience were getting thin, so I told him if his way was the right way, and the only way, how come there are so many interpretations of Shorin Ryu, Shobayshi, Kobayshi, Kenshin Kan etc. His answer simple, everybody's kata was wrong, he was the only true version. I had enough and explained to him about signatures, that all styles had them, and even styles within the styles had different nuances within the system. He held fast and refused to listen to anything I had to say.

This is not a knock on either style or student. Merely a great example of how some people can let go, open their mind and see something new, a different perspective or even a different interpretation of what is being done. I in no way suggested what I did or what I do as "The Way", rather my understanding of what I see. I see this as recipes, there are many recipes for bread, and different ways to make it. There is not one way, nor is their one bread. The ability to take the recipe and do it, or vary it, or change it, makes a good baker. I am sure there are 2 bakers making the same bread with different recipes. The recipe is a guide, just as kata is a guide, or manual. Everyone is not going to get the same translation from the same manual. But, if we can reach a common median, and study together the results are so much better than to try and force your information on someone. I am sure there are school that are like this, that try to see others interpretation of what they do. I in no way am criticising either art, or how they do their art. I know Vince Morris has some great Bunkai in Shotokan, and Shihan Garrett is a great Shorin practioner that loves to compare kata with you, so I am not criticising style, rather mind set. There is so much information out there, that seeing someone else move a certain way, or see thier interpretation can be really enlightening. It all goes back to approach, for me, we all do the same thing, its the approach that changes what we do. Anyway, just thought that this really showed a great example of 2 distinct different approaches.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by senseilou:

He was an early Black Belt, and anxious to tell me I was doing things all wrong. [/QUOTE]

If he has just earned his BB then he is probably doing the "New Black Belt Strut". He thinks he has learned almost all he can, and does not know he has just started learning. Give him some time and maybe he will come around.

tkd

I'm very curious Senseilou, as to whether your Tad Shotokan/Wado buddy now practices the techniques he has learned through drilling with his class, or if he tells them about it and goes back to his regular syllabus?

Hi senseilou

I met up in NY with Raul Perez from this forum a while back. We'd been discussing applications to Tekki/Naihanchi katas on a thread and after a while we agreed to hire a small hall in town and go over the subject a bit.

Raul's style is Ryukyu Kempo and my base is Shotokan.

We both did the kata and then went through the applications as we thought of them. Some similar, some completely different. Great fun.

Raul paid for the Hall, I paid for the beers after. It's great when open minded people exchange ideas without the need to prove right or wrong.

JohnL

JohnL, what kind of applications did you guys come up with for Tekki??

You'd have to have been there I'm afraid. Trying to describe techniques on a forum is next to impossible. (And yes, I've tried)

Generally strikes, kicks, strangles, chokes, locks, and anything else painful we could come up with. Some we had some fairly preconceived ideas for, others we developed as we went along.

Thanks Raul, we'll have to do it again sometime.

JohnL

[QUOTE]Originally posted by senseilou:
His answer simple, everybody's kata was wrong, he was the only true version. [/QUOTE]

senseilou - tell the truth, how far into the workout did you get before you could see this coming? Just curious...

Hey guys,
Now I jealous. I'll extend the invitation. If you want to bounce the bunkai around, come to K.C.. Its right in the middle of the U.S. easy to get to. BarbeQue and beverages on me. You can sleep cheap in the dojo,(it's in the house). I just missed a visit from a forum member. He was coming to town and I was leaving for christmas.I may be an old dog but I'm still learning new tricks.

So to reiterate If you all end up in K.C. email and pack your bags.

oldman

P.S. Except senseilou, I'd pay for his hotel!


[This message has been edited by oldman (edited 12-28-2004).]

Sensei Lou,

Yep, a very old story. You can almost pick any system and find individuals who hold the truth is only in their own way.

Of course if they're so deep into their own training that they have no time to look at anything else, and their training is working they don't really need another answer.

But it does make them difficult to communicate with doesn't it.

Victor Smith

Hey JohnL,
I know I don't get on this forum often, but if you do that again let me know I'm 20 minutes west of NYC in NJ.
I like to play with street applications and weapons disarms from the katas.
Oh, I'm a Kobayashi ShorinRyu stylist.
I'll be more than happy to pitch in for the beer and hall.

Hey JohnL,

How funny is this... I was just thinking about our meeting like 2 days ago. We HAVE to do it again sometime soon. I've come up with a few more applications I would like to show you. Lately work has been keeping me mucho busy due to the Sarbanes-Oxley Act (Thanks Enron and MCI-Worldcom! You **** )

For the record... I've been choked out before. But never have my eyes popped out of my skull until JohnL sunk his meat hooks around my neck.

Our kata were very, very similar with slight differences. JohnL had some very good bunkai that fit his body type and I had mine. I've incorporated many of the bunkai he has shared into my training (especially the low foot sweep and that nasty neck crank.. gracias amigo). I had a great time but next time we should schedule for a bit longer.

Hope all is well buddy and hope you had a merry Christmas!

Kind regards,

Raul

well I am glad I started this now. The question comes up, will people use what you give them? I think this is valid, how would my New York friends feel if they went to all the trouble and expense to meet and train, and then when they left, blow off everything that was done? Anytime you put effort of time into something, you want it to be worth while. However when you teach, other than your students, you can't make someone learn, you can just offer the gift and hope they accept it.Like Mr. Smith says, its very hard to reach the person, or get them to see your point, not change what they are doing, just see a different perspective. Do I think the person I wrote about will show his students, NO, I don't but he was here again today with me for 6 hours to have an exchange. will he keep doing what he is doing now, I am sure he will, but I put questions in his mind. I showed him a side of training he hasn't viewed before, so was my time wasted, it could be viewed that way, but I was not there to change him, or have my art spread to his students, my purpose was to share my interpretation and perspective. This is like an opinion, and we all can't expect everyone to always accept our opinions. Everyone knows about what opinons are like. I think that if we can get people to listen, we can share what we do with each other, and if you say something that helps great, if not, we have maybe made some friends, like what happen in New York. I also have had a member of the forum join us, and its great having him as part of our dojo family. New York guys, right on, you have my respect, what a great thing to do. Old Man......I have never been to KC, and while I don't eat meat, I am dying to go to your Royal stadium, or watch the Chiefs, I may pop up sometime and will certainly let you know. Or you could come out here, the Royals have a new spring training home, about 30 minutes from the house, you get kill 2 birds at once that way.

senseilou,
Salads and green tea all around barkeep!

oldman

Lou,
Interesting post. Who did the Seito guy train with? Even amongst Matsumura Orthodox types the kata differ slightly. Some of the senior teachers like Kise, Coffman, Gingras, Lindsey and Sandoval, have figured out ways to do things that make more sense to them.

For example Sensei Lindsey is a college educated man. He has a Bachelor of Science degree. He understands the lessons of physics and science. He has many physicians and science types who train with him. He has students who once were BBs (some very high ranking) in TSD, TKD, Goju Ryu, Uechi Ryu, Kobayashi Ryu, Matsubayashi, Kyokushinkai, Motobu-Ha Shito ryu, Shotokan, Shobayashi/Seibukan, Shorinji Ryu, GJJ, Judo, Aikido, Kenjutsu, Boxing-- practically any fighting system you can think of.

In addition to this he was a Central Texas Golden Glove heavyweight champ, Uechi Ryu stylist, Shotokan man and starting fullback for the Texas A&M Aggies. He went through the legendary Bear Bryant torture camps detailed on ESPN. He was an MP (K-9 officer) on Okinawa and in Vietnam. He has a very wide experiential base, which focuses on contact activities and combat. He has a wide student base whose brains he can pick and test.

I have seen his bunkai, if that's the word for it, work on all comers. His understanding of what he calls structural ki has not waivered from what he learned from his Okinawan teachers, namely Soken, Kise, Kinjo and Kuda. He has done one system, without straying, for 40 years. I have never seen another American karate man with his skill, knowledge or execution of technique.

I've seen and trained with some of the best in their respective MAs. What they taught me often worked after some forcing but my understanding of how to use karate functionally and how to apply kata to real world training didn't even make sense until I started learning Matsumura Seito from Lindsey. He says that he has changed little about the way his teachers taught him. Of course there are differences in strategy and execution, but very few.

"Kise steps like this, Kuda like this", he will sometimes say. Then he'll explain in real terms why he chooses one over the other. He will teach us both anyway, just to show there are different ways to do the same thing. He's seen many diverse interpretations based on different Seito teacher's methods and he's found what works best for every student, not just himself.

Nothing in kata is 100% transferrable without some drift. The thing is that when you start to drift too much from the thing which works the best (for example from what I've learned of the Seito kata versus even the Kobayashi version which can be very close), efficacy and practicality as well as force transferrence, balance and maneuverability are compromised even in the "orthodox" Shorinkan interpretations which are based on Itsou's teachings. His brand of karate is truly in Hohan Soken's and Sokon Matsumura's mold; "adapt to change" but don't change for changes sake.

I like Kajukenbo and there is good Shotokan out there. An athletic person in any system who practices for years with proper intent can make their "karate" functional to a certain degree. Matsumura Seito Shuri Te can work for anyone regardless of their level of physical prowess. It's because it's based on strong AND sound basic techs made reflexive with lots of kihon and kata training. A lot of styles can't say that.

Most BBs who do karate, whatever the style, wind up looking like sloppy kickboxers when they apply their principles to real fighting or a resisting opponent. With the exception of some Okinawan Shinshii, Sensei Lindsey is one of the very few teachers I've seen who can use the traditional karate principles they were taught for real on any style or attack. Many have said the same about Kuda, Kise, Nishihira, Gingras, Coffman, Kinjo and other Matsumura and Okinawan karate trained Sensei. They all do the traditional Shuri kata without the Funakoshi, Kyan or Itosu influence, or even the newer "Itosu" kata (like the Pinan) using the principles of Matsumura Seito.

I'd have to go through forms with you. We would probably see a lot of similarities and differences. I would explain to you using science, biomechanics and why the older kata (and each kihon tech) might work better than a newer one. You'd probably do the same. If you could prove that your analysis of a movement makes more sense than mine I would say "cool".

Bunkai is not what kata is about. Repetition of the smartest, most efficient and logical kata movements sans formal bunkai is what gives you the ability to morph conscious structure into adaptable plasticity. The interpretation for each movement should be subconscious and limitless, not limited and strictly defined.

Using kata as a general mnemonic for self understanding and realizing the original intent of the form and its founder is the key. Using kata for qigong is also crucial, especially in the area of sinew vs. muscle training, and controlling breathing.

Learning to be relaxed and flexible with the movements is why the old school Okinawan use to make their student do dozens and dozens (sometimes hundreds!) of repetitions of a single kata. They may have shown some applications especially in 2-man drills, but making the movements natural is very crucial in understanding what the movements are teaching. Forget bunkai until you can do the kata PERFECTLY (for you) and without thought. That's all the bunkai you really need.

You have to do kata in the most scientific and sound manner as possible. Otherwise like a system that emphasizes kumite over kata, you'll be ingraining bad habits, faulty principles and false confidence. If you can prove that raising your rear heel off the ground makes more street sense in delivering a bare-knuckle punch vs. rooting yourself, pivoting your hips and sinking or rising or even just by twisting the rear foot from 90 to 45 degrees, then I'll listen.

If you can prove that the Shotokan zenkutsu-dachi makes more sense as a sound fighting posture than a more subtle shizentai-dachi or PaiSai Dachi for most scenarios then I'll listen. But you can't because it's can't be used for most fighting scenarios so you'd be wasting your time trying to prove a moot point.

Same goes for fist forms, like Isshin Ryu's basic verticle fist with the protruding thumb on top versus a thumb reinforcing or splinting vertical, 3/4 or even schoolboy horizontal fist. The latter three examples make more sense than the former. That's just fact based on what we now know of the human body and physics in general.

If you can prove that a flat upward "block" is more sound and effective than one that is at a 45 degree angle, then I'd give you mad props. But again that is not even possible, because the physics of a wedge state otherwise. Still you'll see the majority of ryuha teaching some ridiculous 90 degree upward block, even realy good modern styles like those found in Gracie JJs Self-Defense format. Broken ulnas don't feel good . Know what I mean?

Maybe that's what the Seito guy was trying to get across. All styles have NOT been created equal. That's how nature works. Certain things are preeminent. Some things work better than others. That's not to say that jimmy-rigging or reverse engineering can't work. Just how well and for what purposes is the question.

You can only understand that which is more feasible if you are introduced to the concept. Otherwise you can't know what you have never experienced. Like there is no way to tell a builder who doesn't understand basic geometry why his flat roof won't bear more weight or deflect things away from the house better than one erected at a 45 degree angle. Observation, knowledge and experience with a myriad of ways are also key, but if you think every soultion is equal you are sadly mistaken.

That's just how the universe works. Some paths are more direct and safer while others are circuitous and frought with error and danger. Yeah you may get "there", but where YOU goin'!

Good post.



[This message has been edited by Multiversed (edited 12-30-2004).]

MV, as for the upper block, when I use it as a KO, I use it two ways.

Strike the medulla and browline simeltaneously, it is flat. Strike the vargas nerve, it is around about 45.

Of course, you want to deflect a strike, the ulna is weak compared to a fist or a blunt instrument. In Hapkido, we move in and block the arm after stepping 45.

Hi Multiverse,

First I totally agree with you the first goal of kata is to get it right for you.

As a rule of thumb I find it takes about 10 years before you're relax in any kata (not all of them) to the point in its execution that you body doesn't work against itself when you execute the technique. At that point your center of balance drops and your power automatically inreases due to technique efficiency.

Without efficiency getting into the application potential of the kata is not terribly effective. [This does not mean you can't defend yourself, it's just you're not going to get much out of the kata potential because you're not ready for those layers of study, there are no short cuts.]

Also having true efficency in your movement you're more likely to trust the technique and that is critical to understand its potential.

I suppose everyone should have somebody in their training who they have complete trust in, I've been fortunate in that regard with a number of supberb instructors.

My faith in my technique, besides doing it for 30 years in one dimension is bolsetered by my studies with the late Sherman Harrill. At the clinics I attended with him he shared over 800 applications (which I've documented for my students) within Isshinryu's 8 kata, only using the kata directly. But the number of applications is irrelevant, because what was important is the underlying principles that drove his application study.

Small details how to effectively use larget technique with the appliation of the small knuckle in the strike, or how Isshinryu's vertical fist can strike with the standing ridge of knuckles in a manner no turning fist can duplicate, with less chance of error when stressed than the single knuckle ones. Details how the lower body is incorporated into full application potential as well as breathing to name a few.

But looking more closely at Uechi, among the more advanced Okinawan stylists I've seen, I'm currently more interested in the open hand applications.

Of course Uechi isn't really Okinawan, just practiced by Okinawan's. From the 20's to 40's I guess it was just practiced on the mainland, and in the 40's Uechi returned home and began teaching there. That because Uechi's technique came from China, and in their original version they didn't use the fist as a flat striking technique at all.

Happy New Year,

Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Hill:
MV, as for the upper block, when I use it as a KO, I use it two ways.

Strike the medulla and browline simeltaneously, it is flat. Strike the vargas nerve, it is around about 45.

Of course, you want to deflect a strike, the ulna is weak compared to a fist or a blunt instrument. In Hapkido, we move in and block the arm after stepping 45.[/QUOTE]

In karate elbow always in. If you are using like Multi said a head block with the 90 degree angle you are using it incorrectly. There are probably better ways to strike the target if that is the only way to get to it with that technique.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tkd:
If he has just earned his BB then he is probably doing the "New Black Belt Strut". He thinks he has learned almost all he can, and does not know he has just started learning. Give him some time and maybe he will come around.

tkd, you've hit the nail on the head. A good MA acknowledges that many techniques will work, but he's not there yet.

senseilou, let's be hope this guy doesn't run into your dojo one day yelling "Matsamura akbar!" with a bomb around his waist. What an ass!

[/QUOTE]