FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 103 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Drk1915, poolio, tkbeaty, sheikspells2022, sanna
23299 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4
5 6 7 8 9 10 11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
26 27 28 29 30
New Topics
Recent Posts
Forum Stats
23299 Members
36 Forums
35708 Topics
432778 Posts

Max Online: 488 @ 01/23/20 01:55 PM
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#106925 - 12/28/04 12:25 PM 2 Different Stories
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Recently a friend of ours , who is a Sensei in Judo, Shotokan and Wado Ryu,(and real traditional) asked to come by and train with us. I was showing him a stick disarm that he really liked. I told him it was in his kata and showed him where. He had no idea. His Sensei did not do any kind of Bunkai or interpretation of kata. They only did a few kata anyway(I did find this strange as I thought Shotokan was very kata oriented)and did not practice Bunkai. This is not a knock on Shotokan, it is just they way they trained, they were more Kumite oriented. The Sensei really liked the 'link' I showed him and asked to come back and me share some Bunkai with him.

I took a kata that we both knew, and told him to look for the similarities in what we did, not differences. I told him to do his version of the kata, and I mine. I counted out the movements and had him freeze frame each movement. A simple outward block, I would punch him and let him block, grab his wrist and have him release the grip, grab his Gi and have him knock off the hand or take a wrist lock, I even kicked and had him use the outward block. I did this for every movement of the kata. He really enjoyed this, then I started putting movements together. It was great seeing him catch on and use his kata. It was a great experience for me as I got to see another translation or another movement for the same kata, so I was learning as well. It was a great experience, he got introduced to Bunkai and interpretation, I various different movements for the movements I knew, it was a really good time, and learning experince.

Sensei had a friend and told him about the process that we used and suggested his friend come by and do the same. The friend was Matsmura Orthodox, Shorin Ryu. When he came over, I told him the exact same thing, look for similarities, and do HIS VERSION of the kata. We got started and I counted out the first movement and he corrected me on the movement. He was an early Black Belt, and anxious to tell me I was doing things all wrong. I tried to explain we were each doing our version of the form, and he still kept telling me that my movements were wrong. I suggested we change kata since he was having a hard time seeing similarities. We tried another and the same result, we never got to Bunkai because he kept telling me his form was the right way, and my movements were wrong, therefore no interpretation I had could be THE RIGHT ONE. I tired one more kata but still no luck. I hate to come accross arrogant but I was wating my time, and my paitience were getting thin, so I told him if his way was the right way, and the only way, how come there are so many interpretations of Shorin Ryu, Shobayshi, Kobayshi, Kenshin Kan etc. His answer simple, everybody's kata was wrong, he was the only true version. I had enough and explained to him about signatures, that all styles had them, and even styles within the styles had different nuances within the system. He held fast and refused to listen to anything I had to say.

This is not a knock on either style or student. Merely a great example of how some people can let go, open their mind and see something new, a different perspective or even a different interpretation of what is being done. I in no way suggested what I did or what I do as "The Way", rather my understanding of what I see. I see this as recipes, there are many recipes for bread, and different ways to make it. There is not one way, nor is their one bread. The ability to take the recipe and do it, or vary it, or change it, makes a good baker. I am sure there are 2 bakers making the same bread with different recipes. The recipe is a guide, just as kata is a guide, or manual. Everyone is not going to get the same translation from the same manual. But, if we can reach a common median, and study together the results are so much better than to try and force your information on someone. I am sure there are school that are like this, that try to see others interpretation of what they do. I in no way am criticising either art, or how they do their art. I know Vince Morris has some great Bunkai in Shotokan, and Shihan Garrett is a great Shorin practioner that loves to compare kata with you, so I am not criticising style, rather mind set. There is so much information out there, that seeing someone else move a certain way, or see thier interpretation can be really enlightening. It all goes back to approach, for me, we all do the same thing, its the approach that changes what we do. Anyway, just thought that this really showed a great example of 2 distinct different approaches.

#106926 - 12/28/04 01:43 PM Re: 2 Different Stories

[QUOTE]Originally posted by senseilou:

He was an early Black Belt, and anxious to tell me I was doing things all wrong.

If he has just earned his BB then he is probably doing the "New Black Belt Strut". He thinks he has learned almost all he can, and does not know he has just started learning. Give him some time and maybe he will come around.


#106927 - 12/28/04 01:52 PM Re: 2 Different Stories

I'm very curious Senseilou, as to whether your Tad Shotokan/Wado buddy now practices the techniques he has learned through drilling with his class, or if he tells them about it and goes back to his regular syllabus?

#106928 - 12/28/04 02:38 PM Re: 2 Different Stories
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Hi senseilou

I met up in NY with Raul Perez from this forum a while back. We'd been discussing applications to Tekki/Naihanchi katas on a thread and after a while we agreed to hire a small hall in town and go over the subject a bit.

Raul's style is Ryukyu Kempo and my base is Shotokan.

We both did the kata and then went through the applications as we thought of them. Some similar, some completely different. Great fun.

Raul paid for the Hall, I paid for the beers after. It's great when open minded people exchange ideas without the need to prove right or wrong.


#106929 - 12/28/04 02:53 PM Re: 2 Different Stories

JohnL, what kind of applications did you guys come up with for Tekki??

#106930 - 12/28/04 03:28 PM Re: 2 Different Stories
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
You'd have to have been there I'm afraid. Trying to describe techniques on a forum is next to impossible. (And yes, I've tried)

Generally strikes, kicks, strangles, chokes, locks, and anything else painful we could come up with. Some we had some fairly preconceived ideas for, others we developed as we went along.

Thanks Raul, we'll have to do it again sometime.


#106931 - 12/28/04 03:48 PM Re: 2 Different Stories

[QUOTE]Originally posted by senseilou:
His answer simple, everybody's kata was wrong, he was the only true version. [/QUOTE]

senseilou - tell the truth, how far into the workout did you get before you could see this coming? Just curious...

#106932 - 12/28/04 05:06 PM Re: 2 Different Stories

Hey guys,
Now I jealous. I'll extend the invitation. If you want to bounce the bunkai around, come to K.C.. Its right in the middle of the U.S. easy to get to. BarbeQue and beverages on me. You can sleep cheap in the dojo,(it's in the house). I just missed a visit from a forum member. He was coming to town and I was leaving for christmas.I may be an old dog but I'm still learning new tricks.

So to reiterate If you all end up in K.C. email and pack your bags.


P.S. Except senseilou, I'd pay for his hotel!

[This message has been edited by oldman (edited 12-28-2004).]

#106933 - 12/28/04 06:37 PM Re: 2 Different Stories
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Sensei Lou,

Yep, a very old story. You can almost pick any system and find individuals who hold the truth is only in their own way.

Of course if they're so deep into their own training that they have no time to look at anything else, and their training is working they don't really need another answer.

But it does make them difficult to communicate with doesn't it.

Victor Smith

#106934 - 12/28/04 07:52 PM Re: 2 Different Stories

Hey JohnL,
I know I don't get on this forum often, but if you do that again let me know I'm 20 minutes west of NYC in NJ.
I like to play with street applications and weapons disarms from the katas.
Oh, I'm a Kobayashi ShorinRyu stylist.
I'll be more than happy to pitch in for the beer and hall.

Page 1 of 2 1 2 >

Moderator:  Cord, MattJ, Reiki 

Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Only $89

Fight Videos
Night club fight footage and street fights captured with the world's first bouncer spy cam

How to Matrix!
Learn ten times faster with new training method. Learn entire arts for as little as $10 per disk.

Self Defense
Stun guns, pepper spray, Mace and self defense products. Alarms for personal and home use.

Stop An Urban Gorilla: Get 2 FREE TASER M26C Replacement Air Cartridges With Each New TASER M26C!


Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga