FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 32 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
TomRosenberg, jessylin, play, Keith_G, LeroyCFischer
22937 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
jwwmantis 2
Zombie Zero 1
Beefcake 1
LeroyCFischer 1
futsaowingchun 1
December
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30 31
New Topics
Freeing Hand-Wing Chun's last movements
by futsaowingchun
12/17/14 09:40 PM
2015 Master Yang Jwing-Ming Seminar
by jwwmantis
12/05/14 10:36 PM
The Beginners Guide To Stretching
by
12/27/06 11:43 AM
Your true goal
by
03/03/06 07:16 AM
Recent Posts
Freeing Hand-Wing Chun's last movements
by futsaowingchun
12/17/14 09:40 PM
Your true goal
by Beefcake
12/11/14 02:44 AM
The Beginners Guide To Stretching
by LeroyCFischer
12/04/14 02:07 AM
Forum Stats
22937 Members
36 Forums
35591 Topics
432526 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#106881 - 12/17/04 08:51 AM White Crane Fraud.
Anonymous
Unregistered


Unmasking of a White Crane fraud:-
http://pakhok.proboards33.com/

Top
#106882 - 12/18/04 03:30 PM Re: White Crane Fraud.
Anonymous
Unregistered


From his website :-

Paik Po Lien: Another misconstrued and highly distorted form that you find in some Karate circles. The Okinawan's version Paipuren is a greatly watered down and lacks the unique finishing aspect of this form
http://home.austarnet.com.au/tsuruken

Top
#106883 - 12/19/04 04:25 AM Re: White Crane Fraud.
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Just for clarity, where is the fraud?

Is it the claims made on the website?

Is it that there is some Okinawan technique that is 'crane' and not original?

What is original? Is it only Southern Chinese Crane? Is it Shaolin Crane technique? Is it Hung Gar's Crane. It it tai chi chaun's Crane? Is it Northern Chinese Crane? Or is it Okinawa's Hakutsuru quest?

I only see technique that can drop somebody regardless of source. Better or worse I leave to the hand that guides the universe to determine.

What is the source meaning of this topic?

Thanks,

Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu

Top
#106884 - 12/19/04 05:24 PM Re: White Crane Fraud.
Anonymous
Unregistered


The source meaning is that he lied about the “source” of his self-styled White Crane. He was taken to task in his forum and he has since deleted all the telling posts and restricts general access to his forum.

In effect, he is unable to verify anything he claimed about his background in White Crane.

The other statement is taken from his website.

As a practitioner of both Okinawan Karate and Papulien (Happoren), I find his statement objectionable.

Just thought I seek other’s feelings concerning this?

Thanks.

Top
#106885 - 12/19/04 08:07 PM Re: White Crane Fraud.
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Thanks Highflyer,

I appreciate the clarification. I could interpret your statement a number of different ways.

Thats why I was inquiring what the issue was?

With your net name, and the link I couldn't figure out what side of the issue you were trying to express.

Victor Smith

Top
#106886 - 12/20/04 06:44 PM Re: White Crane Fraud.
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi Victor,

Just in case you have never been to his site, below are some more of his sweeping statements. I would really like to hear yours and others' views concerning this:-

White Crane is not "Karate" nor is it related to "Hakutsuru."

Many within the martial arts world state that their exists a link from Okinawan Karate to that of White Crane but nothing could be further from the truth.

White Crane as a unique art form and tradition has no verifiable link to Okinawan Karate and even less to that which is commonly termed "Hakutsuru."

Okinawans did not get their materials from Fuzhou. They may have acquired it from Fujian / Taiwan or any other part of China but not Fuzhou.

Karate researchers are better off looking at Ngo Chor (5 Elders) and Tai Chor (Grand Ancestor) rather that White Crane per se. These 2 styles are greatly influenced by Fukien White Crane and these could be their original source. The Tiger Kung Fu is the very one that the Uechi Ryu people align themselves with.

Karate contains very little White Crane. There is some Chinese connection but definitely not White Crane. Most Karate folks talk about White Crane but nothing they do comes close. Goju-Ryu seems more aligned to Ngo Chor. Uechi-Ryu would seem to reflect the essence of Tiger Kung Fu within its technical make-up.

White Crane is a totally unique art and is in no way related to modern "Crane Karate" and "Hakutsuru" as taught by other groups.

Their purported Crane forms are nothing like what we do in White Crane – especially in relation to fundamental root dissimilarities and not stylistics. It would seem that the only thing they obtained out of Fuzhou is the names of their katas.

As for "Hakutsuru", a few think that White Crane is just a couple of crane styles blocks and crane beak hand strikes! Much (if not all) of that passed off as "Hakutsuru" has no relation to White Crane.

The approach of the White Crane Research Institute creates powerful questions within people, questions that change minds, that open them and compel them to grow. The White Crane Research Institute presents a challenge of the deepest kind, probably viewed by the inner self as momentous.

Top
#106887 - 12/20/04 09:57 PM Re: White Crane Fraud.
Anonymous
Unregistered


The only karate style I know of that holds claim to having white crane kung fu as origin is Goju ryu and from what Ive heard Miyagi studied a bunch of southern chinese styles and then made whatever changes he felt were necessary. It was his teacher Higaona who studied white crane in china, and I thought it was Fujian crane, but Im not a Goju stlist my knowledge of their history may be inaccurate.

I personally doubt that there were many chinese techers who would have taught the full system to non-chinese outsiders so I think that may partially account for many of the differences.

I have never seen Hakutsuru, but no Shuri-te Karate that I have seen holds much resemblance to the Fujian White Crane I've studied. There are certain similarities but they are usually superficial (use of horizontal fist etc).
I heard that Matsumura studied Shaolin, which looking at the stances seems to make more sense for Shuri-te.

As one person on the site's forum stated, arts change with time, if there was white crane influence 1-150 years ago theres no reason to assume the resemblance would still be visible. Also if most karate lacks Fuzhou crane influence who cares? Hakutsuru may not have anything to do with Southern white crane, but it came from somewhere and it has lessons to teach. People are often too concerned with lineage and history. Karate is what karate is, here and now.

Top
#106888 - 12/21/04 02:36 AM Re: White Crane Fraud.
Anonymous
Unregistered


Have to go with you to a large degree but then you gotta admit that history is also important. Every major work published on foundation of most Karate points to Fuzhou and RyuRuko, an important Whooping Crane Fuzhou master.

Research missions from both Okinawa and the West arrived at roughly the same verdict. That is Fuzhou is the birthplace of many karate ryus. Even the Chinese, on the other end, assented to the conjecture.

I am curious, how did this one website came up with these statements? Where is the evidence to counter findings of the many preceding missions to seek Karate’s roots?

Or are these simply unstantiated statements intended to achieve other purpose?




[This message has been edited by highflyer (edited 12-21-2004).]

Top
#106889 - 12/21/04 07:23 AM Re: White Crane Fraud.
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Highflyer,

Some random thoughts on your questions.

About the White Crane web site, I suspect he’s correct his White Crane has nothing to do with Okinawan Karate, which begs the question why talk about an art he’s not doing?

The likely answer is there is no public outcry for people wanting to learn White Crane, after all when was the last time you heard about somebody running down the street shouting “I have to learn self defense, where the nearest Crane school?” <GRIN> but there are those interested in karate who have some interest in Crane so he’s marketing his site and teachings to those people. So for example has Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming, but he doesn’t market his teachings by running down anyone else’s.

The White Crane dude is using the same ‘poison the wells’ rhetorical theory everyone uses to run down somebody else. He’s certainly not original in his approach, it’s just crafted to make the points he wants to make.

I don’t believe there is any way over the net to determine how much he knows, or how well he knows it, or how he came about knowing it. So without proof, it should be considered as such, just statements, and one should assume he knows something about what he studies and teaches. It’s just we can’t prove he knows it well or not.

After more than a few years of study, I believe there are actually very few in the arts who truly care about the origins of same, except to pass a test. It is very far down the personal study list from one’s current training. Almost all of the ‘history’ would not qualify as more than oral history to a trained historian. Almost all of it is unverifiable.

If your instructor told you his instructor told him such, and you believe your instructor, then you’ll choose to accept what he shared. That is historical proof, just not independent historical proof.

That becomes the slippery slope most current researchers walk upon. If you keep an open mind and a healthy dose of skeptcism not to accept any truth as totally true, you may have the healthiest attitude towards all of this.

I accept as accurate those who’ve gone to China and have seen martial traditions they can link to Okinawa’s. I also must state, while I accept their views, I don’t believe them for myself. To date, what I’ve seen does not seem to indicate significant similarity to the Okinawan arts. Which may well mean I just haven’t seen the right ‘stuff’, but I can only operate on what I’ve seen. I’ve studied some in several Chinese traditions, but the Northern ones, I have some idea how vast the Chinese answers can be and won’t assume.

I think the Okinawan arts are primarily that, and certainly have had other influences, but the origins remain Okinawa.

There are Crane traditions from Okinawa. Whether they link to Chinese ones directly, outside of the link through Go Te Ki (spelling?) or not I have no idea. If the form is performed well, and the technique applications work, who cares if they’re linked to somebody else’s White Crane tradition. Whether those traditions are truly reflected within the other Okinawan arts, I still hold as inconclusive and without evidence which likely does not exist, will remain unanswered.

Interestingly, a number of years ago the Senior Chinese Wu Shu coach was interviewed in the old T. O’Neil’s British Karate magazine. He made the point, from his knowledge, nobody who shared with any Okinawans had any national importance in the Chinese arts. Then realizing what he said, hastened to add, that individual may have been ‘good’ but just was unknown as far as the national arts were known.

With thousands of martial traditions that is a reasonable statement, assuming they did exit.

Personally the only value to looking at the past is if it helps shape your current or future training. Okinawan arts do exist. That is enough.

I also don’t worry about White Crane. In fact with the vast number of Chinese Crane traditions, I would think they should be more concerned about how their traditions stacks up with the rest. From what I’ve seen I personally like the Northern Crane traditions, very different from the Southern ones.

But then I like anything done well.

Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu

Top
#106890 - 12/21/04 08:38 PM Re: White Crane Fraud.
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Just ran across a post by Patrick McCarthy on another list today. He listed a friend's website from Spain. The friend studied Yongchun Crane in Fujian, and Mr. McCarthy suggests this are may be a progenitor for arts like Goju and Uechi.

The web site is http://www.fujianbaihe.com/fujianbaihe/index.html
and it has lots of video clips to look at and draw your own opinions.

I will say I see similarties to some Uechi and Goju technique, but that's all I would say at this time. Whether this would be the source for Okinawan Crane forms I can't say.

So check it out yourself.

Victor Smith

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >


Moderator:  Cord, MattJ, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Ryukyu Art
Artifacts from the Ryukyu Kingdom missing since WWII. Visit www.ShisaLion.Org to view pictures

Best Stun Guns
Self Defense Products-stun guns, pepper spray, tasers and more

Surveillance 4U
Complete surveillance systems for covert operations or secure installation security

Asylum Images
Book presents photo tour of the Trans-Allegany Lunatic Asylum. A must if you're going to take a ghost tour!

 



Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga