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#106753 - 12/12/04 03:12 PM Naihanchin/Tekki Bunkai - Salutation
Anonymous
Unregistered


Salutation:

1.

From fighting in close, seize the opponent in a "head clinch", with the fingers locked or hands clamped down together, and whilst seizing opponent, strike the back of the wrist or plam of the heel into either occiptal cavity. From here we can apply pressure downward and deliver knees, then as in the kata, to end up in the salutation, we slide out to one side, push our hand down, rotate out and keep control, ready to deliver more knees.

2.

From a lapel or shirt grab, place the outside hand's palm on the back of their hand. Strike inwards almost one inch below the base of the hand with a leopard's paw, then rub across the tendon and bone. Apply pressure to the hand with bodyweight, and seize the point on the ininside elbow (about 1/2 to one inch further up the arm than the "funny bone")then swap hands. From here, circle around with the hand now holding the elbow, keep the hand and hold it above your shoulder, and twist it over 180 deg. from here, bring both hands into Nahanchin slatation above the back of the head and sink down to further apply armbar.

3.

From a cross handed wrist grab, place your other hand on theirs, with the plam heel on top of their top knuckle, so that your hands are in position of Nahanchi salutation, but the tp hand is offset about 4-5 inches above normal. From here, circle both hands around theirs, and reach around with the bottom hand until you have grabbed their wrist, simeltaneously pull in towards your chest, then move in and sink down, so that you lock out their wristm but their forearm, elbow and wrist make a Z or S shape. Bend foward and roll the hips foward to take them to the ground. From here, the first kick of Tekki/Nahanchi 1 and 3 can be seen as a knee to the face.

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#106754 - 12/12/04 08:56 PM Re: Naihanchin/Tekki Bunkai - Salutation
Anonymous
Unregistered


Its funny you began with the salutation Mark, as I personally don't do applications for salutations.

I feel a salutation is just that; this is me this is the school I'm from, here is my rendition of the kata - thats it.

Your applications were interesting, I'm curious about a couple of points:

Firstly are you using the salutation where the hands move up then down or the standard shotokan, move hands from the side to infront of the groin?

Second is there an underlying principle behind your applications, and if so does it extend across your interpretation of the forms movements?

Do your apps for the kata centre around individual movements or do you work the movement sequences?

Did you "learn" the techniques in your applications by studying the form or were they methods that you already knew and recognised in the form?

Lastly is there anything specific about the kata that leads you to apply the salutation as you have, or have you looked at the movements and fitted apps to it based on the nature of the movement?

[This message has been edited by Shonuff (edited 12-12-2004).]

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#106755 - 12/12/04 09:04 PM Re: Naihanchin/Tekki Bunkai - Salutation
Anonymous
Unregistered


The Salutation can flow into other applications, or can be one in itself.

My salutation has the hands press in front of face, then rotate and go down towards groin.

Mc Carthy's HAPV principles work well. I also look at kata moves and try to see common movements in fighting, how they can improve it or how to best use one application to really damagae the attacker with the next - such as manipulating anatomical weaknesses etc.

I have asked around, and you are best to practice bunkai in a few ways: Individual moves, overlapping sequences and a long sequence versus an attakcer who is tough or can do escapes (like a flow drill)

"Lastly is there anything specific about the kata that leads you to apply the salutation as you have, or have you looked at the movements and fitted apps to it based on the nature of the movement?"

Both. App 2, was taught to us, the other two fit quite well compared the kata flow.

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#106756 - 12/13/04 06:07 AM Re: Naihanchin/Tekki Bunkai - Salutation
Anonymous
Unregistered


The way I now Bunkai kata is to start with relistic interpretations of the basic applications and look for th strategies behind the sequences.

An easy to explain example of this is in Heian Yondan. After the opening movements step forward with a low x-block, then step forward into a reinforced block in back-stance.

Now we all know that the x-block is designed to jam a front kick chamber.. refering to the HAPV method a front kick is a fairly common method of attack, and if stopped (or if not) the natural follow up will be either to step back (to regain balance after motion is interrupted), or to step down and punch. So after we jam the kick we step in and trap the gaurd and strike in close, or if the punch comes we block it as we know its comming and advance and counterstrike in close (ideally in one move).

Here we see a simple strategy that we can apply in fighting from tourneys to self defence. It occurs all across the kata of karate in varying forms. I find when I look at apps as just this lock ar that throw I dont learn anything, but by analysing the strategies of sequential apps I can actually learn new ideas and concepts. One of the consequences of this type of application is that the strategies of one kata can be mixed and matched and an overall rule for the kata found. A whole fighting style may develop from a single kata or related sequence of kata as a result of studying these principles.

Looking at Naihanchi, one of the main points I looked at for application was knowledge of body positioning in relation to an opponent. In close quarters one should keep their hips square to an opponent to better enable use of all body weapons and to avoid presenting a blind side for your enemy to exploit. This principle can be seen in many southern kungfu close range styles, like wing chun and white crane kung fu.

Consider this, then consider that all the striking methods in Naihanchi shodan are short circular strikes that dont breach the sides of the torso. It maks more sense for them to be aimed infront of the body rather than the sides.

One example is the elbow strike. Aimed to the front as well as an attack it makes a great deflection technique with the closing hand used to trap the incomming punch. Follow this by using the chamber position to lock the elbow (top fist on elbow joint, bottom fist holding wrist) Gedan Barrai makes a nice hammer fist to the head, or hair pull to open for a hook punch.

The underlying strategy? Deflect and control attacks to create openings. It seems small and obvious but its the small and obvious that gets over looked. Pre-set defences are not what people use when they fight, its the underlying rule thats been trined into them by practicing the pre-sets.

What do you think of this method?

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#106757 - 12/13/04 07:07 AM Re: Naihanchin/Tekki Bunkai - Salutation
Akiba Offline
Member

Registered: 04/11/04
Posts: 365
Loc: London, UK
What is the HAPV prinicple?

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#106758 - 12/13/04 07:26 AM Re: Naihanchin/Tekki Bunkai - Salutation
Stampede Offline
Lord of the Kazoo

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 967
Loc: El Dorado, AR
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Akiba:
What is the HAPV prinicple?[/QUOTE]

Habitual acts of physical violence

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#106759 - 12/13/04 08:48 AM Re: Naihanchin/Tekki Bunkai - Salutation
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Akiba:
What is the HAPV prinicple?[/QUOTE]

Patrick McCarthy put forward the idea that there are certain types of attack, acts of violence, that are very common and that appear again and again in physical conflict. If that is the case he states that it makes sense that kata are designed to combat these methods, so any kata apps that people come up with should be centred around dealing with these.
i.e. this kata defence is more likely against a hook punch than a jump spinning hook kick, because very few people use jump spinning hook kicks in real world street fights while hook punches are everywhere.

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#106760 - 12/13/04 02:44 PM Re: Naihanchin/Tekki Bunkai - Salutation
Anonymous
Unregistered


Heian Yondan....the X-block and reinforced inner block to me is trapping a kick, then applying an ankle hold to it...if all goes to plan. You don't need to chnage the hand movements much if at all.

Your method isn't bad....in fact some say it is more correct, that kata teach strategies rather than self defense sets. don't limit your tools of striking though - e.g, bicep bumps, dropping the shoulder into the head etc...

As for HAPV, Mc Carthy has the terminology, but he says it's how Shaolin used to formualte strategies.

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#106761 - 12/13/04 08:39 PM Re: Naihanchin/Tekki Bunkai - Salutation
Anonymous
Unregistered


I never limit the application potential in the initial stages, only when I'm seeking strategies, and even then if an application works it is worth remembering and passing on, I've just found that very often reverse engineers look beyond the basic interpretation of a technique where all that is necessary is understanding how, say a basic block, is meant to be realistically applied. Also as I stated in the earlier Karate or Jujutsu thread I tend to shy away from jujutsu apps in favour of striking strategies, all striking areas and methods are considered.

Your ankle lock app from Heian yondan is intresting. At which point in the kick are you blocking with the x-block?

In my app you move forward jamming the kick as it chambers, the hands usually impacting at mid shin or higher towards the knee? Alsothe left hand is what stops the kick, the right fist strikes down into the shin. With any luck he wont want to stand lt alone keep fighting.

Actually this brings up something else i meant to ask about. You were talking to MV and you mentioned kicking without a chamber? what exactly does this mean as I'm assuming your kicks are not all straight legged swing kicks??

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#106762 - 12/13/04 08:54 PM Re: Naihanchin/Tekki Bunkai - Salutation
Anonymous
Unregistered


Kicks - the four count kick done slowly is good for balance and stabiliser muscle development, and so kicking pwoer and accuracy.

Without chambering - just try it. The kick should whip out one smooth motion, and whip back likewise, or otherwise, slam through the target.

You are correct about the application of blocking, because when you use all the movements of trad. blocking, an inner block for example, is three movements - check, parry and trap. That's only one way of doing it.

Falsely putting up a wall between Karate and Jujutsu is flawed. The point of using grappling is to manipulate into a vulnerable positiona nd then to deliver a finishing blow or series of strikes, or to destroy their limbs (isn't that what Masutatsu Oyama said?), or to maim or incapcacitate them.

In Heian Yondan, don't be fooled into thinking this move cannot be done without blocking the foot. Always jam the knee, preferably, and away from the body.

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