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#106664 - 11/28/04 01:44 PM Two palms:one goes up- one goes down
Anonymous
Unregistered


Please be kind. I really hesitated before daring to ask a question on this forum. I need some ideas for what the applications might be for a move. The move I am asking about comes up in a lot of kata. The palms are open with fingers together. One faces up, the other down and both are at the same height and in front of you. The palm up one goes up, the palm down one goes down a short way and then they turn over and go the other way. It seems always to be a slow move. If stance matters, in the examples I am thinking of, you would be in a front stance, and in another example, in a cat stance. What would you say this is? Thank you in advance for your serious and helpful replies.

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#106665 - 11/28/04 01:57 PM Re: Two palms:one goes up- one goes down
gojuwarrior1 Offline
tougher than you

Registered: 12/24/02
Posts: 1178
Loc: East Coast, USA
maybe a twisting of the neck,or a foot or hand?i would have to see it.

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#106666 - 11/28/04 07:02 PM Re: Two palms:one goes up- one goes down
Anonymous
Unregistered


This technique you describe has a number of applications. However it should first be noted that a natural permutation of a double-handed movement is a single handed movement. Following this the first application is simply a block/trapping movement. Instead of blocking at the wrist, strike up/down at or above the elbow to interrupt an attack an control the opponents arm.

Another method is to trap the arm, striking up under the elbow and down at the wrist. One should consider carefully though what their options are after using this app. Many consider this type of application an elbow break. The elbow is not an easy joint to break in this manner.

My favourite application of this movement is as a simultaneous trap/strike. Advancing in front stance, the downward arm traps the opponents gaurding arm, the upward arm is a strike to the opponents chin. In practice one would generate the strike from the hip as opposed to infront of the body.

I hope this was helpful, I'm curious to see what other applications people have for this movement. It's nice to see someone starting a thread in the kata apps section that is actually about a kata app. Now good luck getting people to reply! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

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#106667 - 11/28/04 07:09 PM Re: Two palms:one goes up- one goes down
Anonymous
Unregistered


I think the technique that Underdog is refering to (correct me if I'm wrong) is the up/down hand movements in the last section of Empi kata.

For anyone who doesnt know it, here is a link. I think you may have to go down the list, but there is a Jpeg and a Mpeg of the kata.
http://www.karate-do.de/htdocs/ger/frames.html

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#106668 - 11/29/04 07:07 AM Re: Two palms:one goes up- one goes down
Anonymous
Unregistered


Shonuff,underdog,
You can also find similar movements in the beginning of Ship Soo. In the third or fourth movement depending on how you count it out your left hand is in the higher of the two positions. The left hand then relaxes the pronates forming a relaxed downward arc. Next comes a horizontal step and upward palm strike with the right hand with the left hand fisted at the hip. The arcing left hand can can be used as a "hook" when placed on top of the opponants clavical. Hook the fingers of the left hand over the clavical pushing down and pulling slightly forward. Your left hand can be inside or outside of the attackers right arm potentialy appling a trap. By dropping your weight to the right when you step horizontally to the right you are unbalancing your attacker. As they feel the loss of balance and try to pull up to re etablish balance you use the palm of the right hand to strike under the jaw.

Oldman

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#106669 - 11/29/04 07:12 AM Re: Two palms:one goes up- one goes down
Anonymous
Unregistered


WOW I guess it was a good idea just to ask. I'm taking these to the mat today. Actually I was thinking of Empi. That is a good web site. We used to have 24 fighting chickens but it is closed now. Of course, your video clip has it done just a little better and faster than I do it, but it is the same version. Please keep those ideas coming. My imagination is opening up on a move that had me perplexed.

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#106670 - 11/29/04 07:33 AM Re: Two palms:one goes up- one goes down
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
[QUOTE]Originally posted by oldman:
Shonuff,underdog,
You can also find similar movements in the beginning of Ship Soo. In the third or fourth movement depending on how you count it out your left hand is in the higher of the two positions. The left hand then relaxes the pronates forming a relaxed downward arc. Next comes a horizontal step and upward palm strike with the right hand with the left hand fisted at the hip. The arcing left hand can can be used as a "hook" when placed on top of the opponants clavical. Hook the fingers of the left hand over the clavical pushing down and pulling slightly forward. Your left hand can be inside or outside of the attackers right arm potentialy appling a trap. By dropping your weight to the right when you step horizontally to the right you are unbalancing your attacker. As they feel the loss of balance and try to pull up to re etablish balance you use the palm of the right hand to strike under the jaw.

Oldman
[/QUOTE]

Oldman, are you in the Korean arts?

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#106671 - 11/29/04 07:44 AM Re: Two palms:one goes up- one goes down
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
[QUOTE]Originally posted by underdog:
Please be kind. I really hesitated before daring to ask a question on this forum. I need some ideas for what the applications might be for a move. The move I am asking about comes up in a lot of kata. The palms are open with fingers together. One faces up, the other down and both are at the same height and in front of you. The palm up one goes up, the palm down one goes down a short way and then they turn over and go the other way. It seems always to be a slow move. If stance matters, in the examples I am thinking of, you would be in a front stance, and in another example, in a cat stance. What would you say this is? Thank you in advance for your serious and helpful replies.[/QUOTE]

I can tell you one technique it works very well 0n, a two handed lapel grab. Uke grabs your lapels and the up and down motion breaks both hand grabs at the same time. Pretty basic stuff but I'm not sure how advanced you are? It is incorporated into one of our "one step" self defense techniques. Here it is.........Break the lapel grap with the up and down we are discussing, double sudo strike to neck, grab the back of the neck for knee strike to face, push uke away with both hand, jump front kick. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

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#106672 - 11/29/04 07:48 AM Re: Two palms:one goes up- one goes down
Anonymous
Unregistered


schanne,
Good morning buddy. Yes I train in a "korean style". I just have a little different approach of my associates. My instructor doesn't train applications or bunkai so I have had to explore those things on my own. When I was able to get out of the punch/kick mindset I was able to start putting things together." Gosh!? I thought all olman did was draw pictures!?

oldman

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#106673 - 11/29/04 01:31 PM Re: Two palms:one goes up- one goes down
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
[QUOTE]Originally posted by oldman:
schanne,
Good morning buddy. Yes I train in a "korean style". I just have a little different approach of my associates. My instructor doesn't train applications or bunkai so I have had to explore those things on my own. When I was able to get out of the punch/kick mindset I was able to start putting things together." Gosh!? I thought all olman did was draw pictures!?

oldman
[/QUOTE]

Naah, not interested in your drawings just your mind! Soon as you said "Ship Soo" I new you had Korean training. I think the last form learned while training Tang Soo was Row Hi (spelling) but that was a long time ago? I miss the kata's and still do them in class sometimes but it freaks the other BB's out to much. Most of them never trained anywhere than our school and when they see something different they are like stunned animals blinded by head lights.....funny, they all need to open thier eyes a little wider, there is so much to learn.

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