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#106240 - 08/31/04 10:53 AM Opening movement to Tekki
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Just a little curious about the first movment of tekki.
I have seen 2 main variations to it.
1) Some styles start the kata by bringing both hands together at around groin level a few inches away from the body.
2) the other variation is where the hands start at face level, palms towards face. from here they are lowered to the groin posistion(as above).

Do you know where these variations come from? Or which styles practice which?

I hope my description was clear enough

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#106241 - 09/07/04 12:53 PM Re: Opening movement to Tekki
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Not getting much attention.

Here is an example of the first:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/terry.tozer/katas/TekkiShodan.mpg

Here is an example of the second movement although i have seen slight variations:
http://www.goyukan.net/video/shorin/naihanchi.mpg

I am just curious as from where these two variations come from.
I have tried different applications to this move, the most sucessful being a wrist lock. I was wondering how many of you include this movement as part of the kata bunkai?

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#106242 - 09/07/04 08:20 PM Re: Opening movement to Tekki
Anonymous
Unregistered


My favorite way of looking at the opening movements (hands out front, pointing slightly down at 45 degree angle, stepping down with slight rotation to the right) as intercepting a kick. The left arm stays under the leg as the right comes up and out to deflect a punch, possibly to be held by the left hand. The right leg comes up to knee the attacker in the sciatic nerve of the kicking leg, or to stomp on a knee. Either one puts the attacker in a nice position for the elbow strike to the base of the skull, with the option of then pulling his head back (the 'down block') and jamming the following short punch into the exposed throat.




[This message has been edited by Ayotl (edited 09-07-2004).]

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#106243 - 09/08/04 04:08 PM Re: Opening movement to Tekki
Akiba Offline
Member

Registered: 04/11/04
Posts: 365
Loc: London, UK
The Tekki kata were originally practiced on Okinawa under the name of Naihanchi and formed the base kata of many Shorin-Ryu systems. In turn, this kata was an adaptation of Naifaunchin, the translation of which is close to “Internal Divided Conflict” (chin as in SanChin or 3 battles)

If you have a copy of Funakoshi’s ‘Karate-Do Kyohan’ you will be able to see that in Tekki Shodan (1st part) the hands are brought together in front of the groin and represent a symbolic Buddhist opening. In parts 2 and 3 you step straight into the techniques with no opening. (the bow performed in Shotokan at the start is a recent edition)

In Shoshin Nagamine’s “The Essence of Okinawa Karate-Do” the double hand arrangement does appear at the beginning of each part. However the earliest version of the form is Naifaunchin and only has one opening sequence as it was originally one long form.

You are correct in the assumption that the bunkai to such a movement is from a wrist grab, I experimented with this years ago and came to the same conclusion however would come un-stuck for realistic application several moves later largely because the mentality of teachers was to declare it as a ‘in combat’ or ‘boxing’ kata.

Naifaunchin is neither of these as combat does not take place along a neatly arranged line. Such misconceptions arise from a lack of knowledge or commonsense on early pioneers of karate who perhaps witnessed Chinese practitioners demonstrating only the solo sequence. And also because Chokki Motobu (renowned for his fighting ability) went on record as saying one need only study naihanchi.

In fact Naifaunchin is a physical encyclopedia of grappling techniques evoling most likely from Chinese Chin-Na styles. A combat system that was later adopted into military training to teach grappling.

Practiced with a partner Naifaunchin serves as an excellent training drill developing a wide range of joint manipulations and unbalancing techniques similar in scope to sticking hands practice.

Through Naifaunchin we are able to ‘feel’ when an opponent is off balance and proceed to bring them under control. “Internal Divided Conflict” is likely to relate in the same way as the 3-battles of Sanchin do. The conflict of bringing the 3 spheres of the human mind/brain under control as opposed to the typical mind/body and spirit trinity.

If you’re still with me you can check the photos in the book and see that the closed fist portions of the forms are peculiar in that the index finger is not in the usual position for punching. This is because by keeping the finger free, the remaining fingers can form a tighter grip. Extra training for developing a strong grip, not punching as it actually weakens the fist for a regular corkscrew punch. The creators of kata were wise indeed.

Interested in all this? Check out Nathan Johnson’s “Barefoot Zen” I met him about two years after coming up with the wrist lock technique and discovered that he has done amazing research into this form.

Now this might bake your noodle! If Naifaunchin used to be the first kata taught in Shorin based systems, can karate really be regarded as not being a grappling art? The Chin-Na techniques also outdate ju-jitsu and provide a completely different repetoire.

[This message has been edited by Akiba (edited 09-08-2004).]

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#106244 - 09/08/04 06:14 PM Re: Opening movement to Tekki
Multiversed Offline
Banned

Registered: 03/11/03
Posts: 642
Loc: Sa, Tx. USA
First, good reply.

The different index finger form could be interpreted as ippon ken, a tech Motobu Choki was famous for.

Contrary to popular belief, koryu JJJ and Okinawan Te, were MAs that encompassed all ranges, even the use of weapons.

This doesn't mean that Okinawan karate is a grappling art first. Au contraire it is quite evident that it is a striking art supplemented by the other skills needed for all ranges. The one exception in Ryukyuan MAs would be Motobu Udunti, the real Motobu family art that Choki was not privy too.

Naihanchi teaches many things, most importantly change-body stepping and close range striking with locks and controls for fighting one or multiple opponents.

The beginning movement in Shorin Ryu, where the right hand is placed in the left hand and thrust upwards at neck level is quite self-explanatory. It's a a break against the thumbs for a choke or against someone attempting to hold your arms (with a simultaneous reinforced throat spear strike). The movement then turns the hands palm down which leads to a hip girdle (or groin) reinforced strike and/or push against a front bear hug. Of course there are many interpretations for this "ritualistic" opening movement.

From bow to bow, there are zero wasted movements in the kata.

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#106245 - 09/09/04 09:43 AM Re: Opening movement to Tekki
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Does everyone think that the opening movements of kata were suppose to be part of the application?
I mean you can take just about any body movement(within reason) and give it a bunkai. For example is it a bow or is it a headbutt to the nose attempting to knock the opponent out...
Is there any reference by past masters of these oppening movements being applied?

Just thoughts

Richard

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#106246 - 09/09/04 10:43 AM Re: Opening movement to Tekki
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
[QUOTE]Originally posted by creative:
Not getting much attention.

Here is an example of the first:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/terry.tozer/katas/TekkiShodan.mpg

Here is an example of the second movement although i have seen slight variations:
http://www.goyukan.net/video/shorin/naihanchi.mpg

I am just curious as from where these two variations come from.
I have tried different applications to this move, the most sucessful being a wrist lock. I was wondering how many of you include this movement as part of the kata bunkai?

[/QUOTE]

It look just like one of the Tang Soo Do form of Nahanchi. So similar, the Koreans must have copied it from the Japanese?

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#106247 - 09/09/04 08:25 PM Re: Opening movement to Tekki
Multiversed Offline
Banned

Registered: 03/11/03
Posts: 642
Loc: Sa, Tx. USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by creative:
Does everyone think that the opening movements of kata were suppose to be part of the application?
I mean you can take just about any body movement(within reason) and give it a bunkai. For example is it a bow or is it a headbutt to the nose attempting to knock the opponent out...
Is there any reference by past masters of these oppening movements being applied?

Just thoughts

Richard
[/QUOTE]

Why not? My sensei was taught these applications by Hohan Soken and Seizan Kinjo. In adition to it being a display of emptyhands (I have no weapons), the opening movements of Naihanchi are different than your typical "I" kata. In fact tyhe opening movements in many kata, take Kusanku for example, all have practical and symbolic application.

The opening hand movements in Patsai/PaiSai/Passai also have symbolic AND practical application. This is only if your sensei's sensei knew this and taught this to his students accordingly.

There is no "thinking" involved, no assumption. Either you are taught a kata with little drift or a lot of drift. The former will have many things in it that are lacking in the latter. That's it.

Do things the way You think they should be done. When it comes to kata I think I'll stick with what Hohan Soken taught, not what I, or you, or anyone else assumes.

Later...

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#106248 - 09/10/04 12:03 AM Re: Opening movement to Tekki
Anonymous
Unregistered


With Passai, the "first" move and salutation are the same self defense set, to me anyway.

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#106249 - 09/10/04 07:45 AM Re: Opening movement to Tekki
Anonymous
Unregistered


If you're doing Tang soo do or Tae kwon do or Takin yer do, the 'forms' came from the Japanese. Who got them from the Okinawans. Who got them from the Chinese, for the most part. The notion pf salutations is a bit misguided-everything in the kata has function, like a swiss army knife.

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#106250 - 09/12/04 06:58 AM Re: Opening movement to Tekki
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
Excellent responses thus far with regards to Naihanchi Shodan. I my system it uses open hands starting at chin height.

Here are some bunkai (Some already discussed but the others):

Double lapel grab - Bring arms over the assailants arms and use your elbows on the radial nerve to make them bend and come to you. Then wrap your hands around the assailants neck with your thumbs underneath the jaw. Squeeze your thumbs in, up, and then force the head down. Variation could be putting the thumbs in the eyes.

While you are in the mount position - The hand position can be considered a cross collar choke seen in judo.

Pre-emptive strike - using the shape of your hands to strike the trachea and groin or inch below the navel. (followed up with the naihanchi slap of course).

Someone pushes - and they break through your guard and land on your chest... trap one hand and pivot away placing a torque on their wrist. Best case scenerio they buckle in pain. Worst case scenerio they are off balance and open for the naihanchi slap.

Haymaker or straight punch - the hands can guard the face and use a pivoting motion to redirect the attack which can allow you to trap the hand and get you into position to do a naihanchi slap. Either side works be it inside or outside of the attacking arm.

Arm grap - Trap his attacking hand with your free hand. Rotate your trapped hand around his arm thereby trapping his arm with both your hands. Then pivot towards his elbow. Nasty tuite.

You're in the guard - Trap his hand, throw your leg over his head, Arm bar.

Single lapel grab - similar deflection to the punch/haymaker tech just a little variation. One traps and the other secures. Pivot to 45 degrees to his outside and torque the wrist down and towards your opponent.


Just a few to get you started. Of course what I have described are the bunkai in their most basic form. Kyusho jutsu, Atemi Jutsu, and in some cases kia jutsu are needed to truely make these work in a realistic environment.

My best,

Raul

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#106251 - 09/13/04 04:52 AM Re: Opening movement to Tekki
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Raul Perez,
Great post, I'll be trying some of the applications. I have been working really hard on this kata of late, but have found it difficult to apply the kata on the ground. So thanks for sharing your bunkai.
Great Post again.

Richard

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#106252 - 09/14/04 02:39 AM Re: Opening movement to Tekki
reaperblack Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/30/04
Posts: 558
Loc: Victoria, BC, Canada
Let's see the opening movement, shorinkan style. Two hand grab, as was said go through the elbows to bring the opponent closer to you, strike to the throat with the back of the hand blade, grab the back of the kneck at the pressure point with crane hand, execute the elbow to the throat or face.
One hand lapel grab (right hand): grab your opponents two largest fingers and finish the movement, away from your body. You don't have to aim just drive your fingers into the top of their hand and you with be in the right spot. Do this slowly, it hurts like hell. Extend your right arm for the next motion and strike with your elbow into their elbow.
The next movement is the predecessor to the elbow. Assuming that you start to the right it can be a counter to a right hand to the body. Let the fist come in close, using as circular motion raise your hand to the outside of the opponents elbow, throw yours into his.

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#106253 - 09/20/04 03:29 PM Re: Opening movement to Tekki
Ironfoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 2682
Loc: St. Clair Shores, MI USA
One simple bunkai of the groin-level beginning is that, if the fingers are brought up nearly horizontal - say 20 or 30 degrees, and the elbows are relaxed, this is a defense against a knee.

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#106254 - 09/24/04 03:36 PM Re: Opening movement to Tekki
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Ok let me arguee that this is not part of the kata (just being critical to gain better understanding). Tekki shodan is CLEARLY a kata that gets to half way then repeats itself.
IF this is the case then why is the "opening movement" not present at the half way stage?

Side note: just received "My Art of Karate". Not what i thought it was going to be like, nether-the-less useful. Was hoping for more detail on the bunkai. The way it(bunkai) is written is more like he is trying to describe the movement rather than the bunkai. Saying this i have not read it through properly yet.

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#106255 - 08/22/05 11:09 PM Re: Opening movement to Tekki [Re: Akiba]
Shotokan_Nut Offline
Member

Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 43
Loc: Liverpool, England
In Shotokan Style You Start With Hands Over The Groin
_________________________
"There Are Many Imitations, But Only One Shotokan" Gichin Funakoshi

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