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#105957 - 07/14/04 02:35 AM Non Karate Kata

Hi i'm new here, could some one answer my questions about kata, thanks.
(I learn kickboxing, but I'm interested in learning Katas from various martial arts.)

1.What's the term when referring to Chinese kungfu kata? I can't seem to find any information regarding kungfu katas.

2.Is there any Aikido kata's that has striking techniques? there any Katas for muay thai? i recall reading a post where Multiversed mentions a Muay Thai technique called "climbing the vine", is this a move or kata? (

4.I'd like everyone's opinions on what are the most 'flashy' katas for each art.(karate,tkd,etc).

thanks for any answers

[This message has been edited by alegria (edited 07-14-2004).]

#105958 - 07/14/04 02:23 PM Re: Non Karate Kata
Telepath Offline

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 176
Loc: miami, Florida
1 most people call chinese katas forms, which is actually what kata means i think

2 yes some of the advaced akido do have strikes

3. no muay thai has no katas only shadowboxing, climbing the vine is a move

4. the most flashy are gungfu forms.. and of those the most flashy are shaolin and animal forms

[This message has been edited by Telepath (edited 07-14-2004).]

#105959 - 07/14/04 07:24 PM Re: Non Karate Kata
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Hi Alegria,

Some further information on your questions.

The Chinese arts don't use the term kata for their forms. Most often they use the word Kuen.
Kata is a Japanese term for form used in the Okinawan arts.

On the whole there is tremendous difference between the thousands of Chinese arts and the Okinawan ones. For exmaple there are Northern Chinese kuen that contain more techniques in one form than all of Okiawan Kata combined. That doesn't make them better or worse, just quite different.

In regards to Aikido, the use of kata is not as fixed, but often refers to specific two person drills. The concept of striking in Aikido goes back to its roots. Aikido's founder, Usheiba Sensei, taught specific striking techniques and vital point areas to strike prior to WWII, to losen up the opponent making the locks and throws easier.

After WWII (and it has been suggested that the atomic bomb made him realize these arts were no longer martial in the big picture), for many reasons he discontinued teaching atemi with the aikido technique.

Depending when students studied with him their passing along aikido today reflects the time they studied. Some aikido utilize atemi, others don't and won't even discuss it. THeir choice of course.

Muai Thai, if I remember my reading correctly, uses a short presentation meditiation form by fighters before a fight. I think people have felt they looked like kata. But Muai Thai has an entirely different purpose, as a sport to batter the opposing fighter sensless. Different strokes for different folks.

And for flashy kata, that's a modern tournament thing, playing a form for the crowd, adding flips, rolls, ultra high kicks.

In traditional concept the only flash with kata was in the application where you applied a piece of a kata and you're opponent flashed their face into the ground.

Pleasant thoughts,

Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu

#105960 - 07/16/04 03:12 AM Re: Non Karate Kata

thanks for the answers!

1.thanks for explaining about chinese katas, kuen, though i havent been able to find anything online about the subject.
does anyone know about kuen? help me out please.

2.for anyone interested, i found a video online with an aikido kata :
but he doesnt include aikido striking techniques into that kata, i believe.

#105961 - 07/16/04 05:13 AM Re: Non Karate Kata
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH

For the Chinese arts there's tons of on-line resources available. A starting point would be the YMAA site of Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming. It is just one site but the site offers a good starting point, has clips available to view and the discussion group offers much material too.

Thank you for that aikido link. If you read carefully you see the taichi aikido kata is a 'modern' invention. Not exactly tai chi but very interesting. As for strikes being present it's how you are trained to see them. I saw several direct striking techniques and continual techniques that serve multiple purposes, striking or locking/throwing.

I'm not sure what the purpose of you're questions is.

Self study? None of the arts I've trained in can accomplish anything by video clips or video tapes. All require actual instructor guidance to make any progress in the beginning levelsl.

Video tapes are really not too valuable. They only present one aspect or dimension of view, they don't show the progression from newie to the level being demonstrated, they don't offer layers of corrections to move one along, and unless you have previous training in that art or a similar one, they likely won't be reviewed after the first showing.

As you study kickboxing, it would seem kata, kuen, forms are a different dimension of study. No art has everything. One is not better or worse thant the other. THey're just different.

Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu

#105962 - 07/16/04 09:13 PM Re: Non Karate Kata
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH

I've just finished watching the entire 17 minutes of the self defense application. If you do so you'll clearly see where he inserts strikes and stomps in the movement.

The demonstration is at practice speed, and the techniques are not completed allowing the partner to get out of the way. aikido style.

The form resembles tai chi with aikido technique, but it really isn't tai chi either.

Seems a somewhat worthy hybrid. Of course if you want tai chi, you should study tai chi. But if you were training in aikido with this gentleman, this form would be worth the time.


Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu

#105963 - 07/23/04 09:59 PM Re: Non Karate Kata

i think i've found what i've been looking for!
click under sets and techniques, theres a lot of material. (pictures, etc).
just curious,is there anyone here studying from this school?
btw. are the members of this forum mainly from karate?


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