FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 36 Guests and 2 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
TomRosenberg, jessylin, play, Keith_G, LeroyCFischer
22937 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
jwwmantis 2
Zombie Zero 1
harlan 1
Beefcake 1
LeroyCFischer 1
December
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30 31
New Topics
Freeing Hand-Wing Chun's last movements
by futsaowingchun
Yesterday at 09:40 PM
2015 Master Yang Jwing-Ming Seminar
by jwwmantis
12/05/14 10:36 PM
unrecognized kata
by William_Bent
11/19/14 07:05 PM
I gained a lot of month in the last few months
by simonajones111
11/19/14 04:54 AM
Where Are They Now?
by Dobbersky
05/30/13 08:08 AM
The Beginners Guide To Stretching
by
12/27/06 11:43 AM
Your true goal
by
03/03/06 07:16 AM
Recent Posts
Freeing Hand-Wing Chun's last movements
by futsaowingchun
Yesterday at 09:40 PM
Your true goal
by Beefcake
12/11/14 02:44 AM
The Beginners Guide To Stretching
by LeroyCFischer
12/04/14 02:07 AM
unrecognized kata
by William_Bent
11/19/14 07:05 PM
I gained a lot of month in the last few months
by simonajones111
11/19/14 04:54 AM
Forum Stats
22937 Members
36 Forums
35591 Topics
432526 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#105905 - 07/08/04 12:08 PM Why no Kata?????
Brian Mullen Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/04
Posts: 60
Loc: kcks USA
OK I have said that Kata has no real use in a fight, and I got a lot of static for it. And thats OK, thats why the forums are here right???

With that said, This question goes to all you Kata "fans" out there.

If Kata is soooo important, why is'nt Kata in all forms of martial arts???

for example, Jujitsu has no katas, atleast the ones I know. Hapkido is another form that has no Katas. These are awsome Arts in thier own right, and the put out great "fighters". Are these Martial Artist less of fighter cause thier chossen style does not incoperate Katas???

Just a Question, Hopefully I don't make anyone upset

Brian

Top
#105906 - 07/08/04 12:34 PM Re: Why no Kata?????
still wadowoman Offline
Improved beefier techno-prat

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 3420
Loc: Residence:UK- Heart:Md, USA
Firstly jujitsu does have kata, and so does judo and Aikido. So do kung fu, taekwondo and tang soo do(they call them forms).I don't know about hapkido.

Secondly whether a style has kata or not does not make it better/worse for fighting. Kata is one way of training, not the only way. Us that are "fans" advocate it for many reasons, those that aren't don't have to do it.

Thirdly, those arts that have kata/forms don't do these alone. They are combined with other training methods.

Fourthly and finally, yes the arts you mentioned do produce good fighter....and bad...and indifferent, just like the arts that DO use kata.

You certainly haven't upset me, as you say these forums are for discussing different veiwpoints. I would be intereste, though, to know why you are so anti-kata.
Sharon

Top
#105907 - 07/08/04 01:19 PM Re: Why no Kata?????
Brian Mullen Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/04
Posts: 60
Loc: kcks USA
Hi Sharon,

Its not that I am "anti" kata, I guess I just don't understand why some forms do and some forms don't have kata's or forms.

I study Okinawan Kenpo and Jujitsu, The style of JuJitsu that I study I Taki Aki Ryu.
And we do not have kata.

A friend of mine takes Hapkido, and They do not have forms either. Boxing is another form of Martial Art and again no forms. I get what you all are saying about how you feel they help you as a fighter, but I guess waht I am getting at, Are the katas or forms the decideing factor on how to be the best fighter???

Brian

Top
#105908 - 07/08/04 01:23 PM Re: Why no Kata?????
Wado-AJ Offline
Member

Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 112
Loc: gorinchem, Holland
Brian, if I may ask.. what MA do you practise?

Top
#105909 - 07/08/04 01:28 PM Re: Why no Kata?????
Wado-AJ Offline
Member

Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 112
Loc: gorinchem, Holland
Practise without kata is not possible. kata means a sort of form that must be practiced thousands of times to get it wright. Boxing also has kata. a sequence of punches that a boxer trains all the time is also kata. performing a gyakuzuki (reverse punch) 3 times is kata. but when a master gives it a name, all kinds of magic feelings and thaughts need to be produced. This is a misunderstanding, I think. It is about the control over youre body.

It is all about creating a good basis. You must work with principles and not with tricks. there are over millions of tricks to learn, but not as many principles. If you have a good basis and understand the principles, you will have to remember less forms and youre body is capable of adjusting to every situation. This is what kata is all about. Like I said before, 3 times gyakuzuki is a kata. add 3 maegeri's and a few blocks and here you have a kata. So this doesn't matter how many movements a kata haves. It is about a basis and understanding the principles what makes you a good fighter in every situation.

Top
#105910 - 07/08/04 01:35 PM Re: Why no Kata?????
Brian Mullen Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/04
Posts: 60
Loc: kcks USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Wado-AJ:
Practise without kata is not possible. kata means a sort of form that must be practiced thousands of times to get it wright. Boxing also has kata. a sequence of punches that a boxer trains all the time is also kata. performing a gyakuzuki (reverse punch) 3 times is kata. but when a master gives it a name, all kinds of magic feelings and thaughts need to be produced. This is a misunderstanding, I think. It is about the control over youre body.

It is all about creating a good basis. You must work with principles and not with tricks. there are over millions of tricks to learn, but not as many principles. If you have a good basis and understand the principles, you will have to remember less forms and youre body is capable of adjusting to every situation. This is what kata is all about. Like I said before, 3 times gyakuzuki is a kata. add 3 maegeri's and a few blocks and here you have a kata. So this doesn't matter how many movements a kata haves. It is about a basis and understanding the principles what makes you a good fighter in every situation.
[/QUOTE]

You seem to be talking in circles, and I mean no disrespect. But Boxers do not have kata, Yes the have drills and shadowboxing etc....But so does Kenpo, and Taekwondo. The difference is they call them Drills. I understand what you are saying,but to me it sounds like you are just talking in circles!!

Brian

Top
#105911 - 07/08/04 02:48 PM Re: Why no Kata?????
chinto01 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/03/04
Posts: 102
Brian my first question to you is how long have you been in the arts? I ask this only because believe it or not when I first started my journey I like most had the same outlook as you do towards katas. Over thte years however and with the proper guidance of my Sensei and with some research on my own I have discovered several insteresting things in kata. Kata is not meant to be the ultimate guide to self defence but it gives us the basics to work with. They are simple and to the point. Katas were also a way for the old masters to pass down the techniques that they thought were important. I know when I teach self defence I try and take from kata what I can and modify it. To your point about some of the other styles and not having kata. One style is no better than the other. It is the student that makes it effective. Also I believe it is not about which style produces the better fighters either .Is not the point of Karate Do to avoid fighting?
Do not give up on kata. It is not about being a fan of it. It is about tradition and making sure the teachings of the founding fathers is passed on.

Chinto

Top
#105912 - 07/08/04 02:52 PM Re: Why no Kata?????
Stampede Offline
Lord of the Kazoo

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 967
Loc: El Dorado, AR
[QUOTE]Are the katas or forms the decideing factor on how to be the best fighter???[/QUOTE]

No. They're another training tool/embodiment of style.

Top
#105913 - 07/08/04 04:00 PM Re: Why no Kata?????
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Brian I have to agree with Wado, in terms of "what is kata". If you are talking about a set of movements in Jujutsu that has a name, and is done solo, and simulates a fight,you are right, there are no kata in Jujutsu(however there is a kata in Judo). But if you view ANY series of movements as kata, then indeed Aikido, Jujutsu and Judo have kata. They may however be 2-person kata. If you look at a given technique when someone grabs and punches, and you do a specific movement of parying/blocking the strike-striking the attackers face-going down his arm and wrist lock,pull him with the wrist lock into a kick and take him down. That series of movements CAN be kata, especially if its repeated over and over, its just a 2 person form. So kata in the form of say Okinawan kata is not the same in Jujutsu or Aikido it does exist depending on how you view. A sensei told me that when you get dressed in the morning, its kata, and when you eat breakfast its kata. think about all the people who have a set regiment in their morning activities. underwear, socks, shirt,pants, shoes. Not that this IS the way to dress but look at how you dress, its probably the same way all the time, routine right, routine is kata, no matter what you do.So in this regard all styles have some form, whether its practiced the same or not. I too am a Jujutsu practioner, am more Jujutsu than Karate, but I have studied Okinawan Te(Shito Ryu)for almost 15 years, and take what I have learned in my kata's and apply them to my Jujutsu. Try applying a wrist lock and stepping into a horse or cat stance and watch how the attackers body changes with how you apply it. to me they are not separate functions, kata can be applied to anything.

Top
#105914 - 07/08/04 06:08 PM Re: Why no Kata?????
kakushiite Offline
Member

Registered: 02/06/03
Posts: 266
Loc: Ithaca, NY, USA
Brian Mullen said:

"Boxers do not have kata, they have drills"

The issue is not drills, but combinations. How many combinations can a boxer have?

For example,
Left jab, right cross, left hook
Cover, jab, hook
Parry, cross
Duck, uppercut
Feint, draw, sidestep

You are right to say that these combinations are not kata. They are individual combinations, whereas kata are series of combinations.

So if boxing, a very effective fighting system, doesn't have kata, why do other systems?

It comes down to the both the complexity and the resulting variety of the combinations. In boxing, there are dozens, if not hundreds of individual combinations boxers use, but they are based on a limited set of techniques. These combinations do not use kicks, sweeps, locks, throws, knees, elbows, headbutts, eyestabs, chokes and all sorts of attacking grabs such as fishhooks, hairpulls, and throat grabs.

Take boxing techniques, multiply them by 20 or 30, and you are starting to come into the range of potential techniques used in fighting. With so many different kinds of techniques, the combinations become geometrically more varied and complex.

It's almost like the difference between chess and checkers, or say between chess, and a game similar but with only 4 pawns, a rook, knight, bishop and king. With so many pieces moving in so many different ways, the 64 square board with 32 pieces allows for endless variety.

It's not just that there are more specific techniques in the martial arts. Perhaps as important is that the combinations of all these varied techniques have been evolving and maturing for over 1000 years, the result being thousands upon thousands of combinations.

Now imagine for a moment that you are a master living perhaps 300-500 years ago, one that has devoted his entire life to the art. You have learned and developed hundreds and hundreds of combinations, some good, some not so good, but some really special.

Now you have a set of students that you want to pass your ideas onto, but the problem is that you have too much to pass on. So the first step is to separate the wheat from the chaff and concentrate on a core set of useful combinations that will best help your students become good fighters.

You also probably want to ensure that this essence of your lifelong study doesn't die when you pass on, but makes its way into future generations of students, those that you yourself will never personally teach, those that will hopefully come to learn your great ideas long after all your students have passed on.

Finally, remember, that you are living in a time with no pictures or videos, no boxing gyms and Tae Kwon Do clubs in every city and town, and quite possibly a time when the arts were practiced in relative secrecy.

How are you going to make your "art", that core set of great combinations, survive?

One option is to string your combinations together and pass them on as a single set. Voila, you create a kata.

The fighting combinations of the old masters exploited the full range of hand, leg and body movements, to build combinations that put the attacker on the ground and out of commission. Evasions and blocks, followed by kicks and strikes to set up locks, sweeps, stomps, chokes and throws. These masters understood that you can't drop a big attacker with a single strike, rather you execute an entire combination, a whirlwind of technique using good body mechanics (turns and forward movements) to develop the speed and power needed to make all the individual techniques really effective.

And when the masters crafted their sequences they did so in a way that preserved the underlying body mechanics of turns and steps, and at the same time added general purpose hand motions that could be used in various ways against different attacks.

Many systems today have roots in arts that passed on these forms, and in many situations the kata have been retained.

But many systems today have no forms. They just have combinations. So what's the difference. Here's one. Over the next few generations, many of these systems will evolve so they bear little resemblance to what is practiced today.

That is because there is incredible cross fertilization across all the arts. Many serious students study a variety of systems. They mix striking, grappling and weapons arts. And they in turn learn too much to pass on. Therefore they need to cull what they believe are the best ideas, or ones that work for them to pass on. This will go on for a few generations at which point, little will survive from what is taught today. There is no way to lock in a core set of techniques to be practiced by future generations of students.

This way works fine for many. You can learn to be a great fighter without ever doing a traditional kata. There are lots great combinations and training methods, and kata is just one of many tools. As all these non-kata systems evolve, they still often pass on good techniques and combinations that teach people how to defend themselves.

Traditional systems, however, choose to keep the kata, and with that, they keep a tie to the past, and potentially a set of useful combinations shared over many generations. They retain a common sequence of body movements that can be used to program proper body mechanics into effective techniques and combinations.

But kata provides other real benefits. First, kata is a means to practice fighting combinations well into old age in a way that maintains speed and power, while minimizing injuries. I am closing in on 50 and I am amazed at how long minor injuries take to heal. Shoulder, ankles, elbows, knees, you just don't want to injure them because it sets back your training for many months.

For those that think fighting begins and ends in the ring or on the mat, they should ask themselves, "For how long?". How many Muay Thai fighters do you see older than 30. Many can still fight, but most are riddled with injuries that will hamper them for a lifetime. Longterm judoka (those that began in their teens and trained into their 50s) are well known for having serious lower back problems.

Look at the big picture. Self defense can be practiced from youth through old age, a time when you are not as strong or fast, a time when you may really need some good fighting ability. Self defense can pe practiced in a way that minimizes injuries, instead of encouraging them. And critical, for practical fighting skills, the practice of the same "package" of combinations repetitively over many decades keeps them automatic and effective.

But the key is, you keep training with minimal risk of getting hit in your teeth, kicked in your groin, stomped on your knee or thrown on your head, risks all too common in the competitive grappling and stiking systems so widely practiced today.

There are other key benefits. First, the extensive repetition of movements has a meditative quality. One book written in the mid-60s was aptly named "Moving Zen, Karate as a Way to Gentleness".

Finally, there are many, like me, who really like the idea that the practice of kata ties them back to some group of long dead masters. You are connected to these great martial artists who devoted their lives to the arts, who culled their vast knowledge into these small sets of great combinations that have withstood the long test of time. Of the many thousands of combinations that have been dreamt up and practiced over countless generations, these great combinations have survived, precisely because the kata survive.

Practicing and teaching the kata and their underlying applications makes us a part of a great historical process, an art form that has survived hundreds and hundreds of years.

This is the art in Martial art. It's about more than just fighting, more than punching harder and faster, more than dominating someone in the ring. It's about a lifelong pursuit, a quest for perfection of something that can never be realized, and a way to grow old gracefully.

And all the while, you get good and stay good at being able to defend yourself.

[This message has been edited by kakushiite (edited 07-08-2004).]

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >


Moderator:  Cord, MattJ, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Self Defense
Offering stun guns, pepper spray, tasers and other self defense products not available in stores.

Pepper Spray
Online distributor of self defense supplies like videos, stun guns, Tasers and more.

Spy Cameras
Surveillance, Hidden Cameras, Nanny Cams, Digital Recorders, Spy Equipment, Pocket DVR's and more

Stun Gun
Wholesale Directlhy to the Public! Stun gun and Taser Guns and personal protection products. Keep your loved ones at home safe!

 

Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga