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#105773 - 02/18/05 07:24 PM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Sensei Paul Hart Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 279
Loc: Lehigh Acres, Florida
If you would like information on Kyoshi Garrett, Kyoshi Gringas or Akimine Sensei you would do good to join the Matsumurakarate group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Matsumurakarate/ This is Garrett's group and can answer any questions. You could give me a call if you would like to talk about this group. Paul at 239-287-4048

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#105774 - 02/19/05 12:07 AM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Multiversed Offline
Banned

Registered: 03/11/03
Posts: 642
Loc: Sa, Tx. USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by oldman:
Frank,
In looking at the photos from the recommended website I noticed the pictures from
1966. Am I correct in thinking that some of the photos are of Toma and Oyata?.
If so, are your guys training methods and execution of the forms similar to oyatas group?
I have always tried to imagine what you guys might look like actually doing the forms.

oldman

[This message has been edited by oldman (edited 02-18-2005).]
[/QUOTE]

The connection between Matsumura Seito Karatejutsu and Okinawan Kenpo is strong. Yuichi Kuda, a senior student of Soken was also a senior student of Shigeru Nakamura. He synthesized the two arts and formed Matsumura Seito (Shorin Ryu) Kenpo. The kata from this lineage have more Seito characteristics than Kenpo ones, but the stances can be longer and a bit wider. They also engage in Bogu sparring. I like some of it and other aspects of it not so much. I never learned the Kenpo variety but my sensei will sometimes show the differences between the kenpo and the karatejutsu.

My current Sensei, Ron Lindsey, was a senior student of Yuichi Kuda. He was president of his organization and Yuichi Kuda himself said that the day would come when old-style Okinawan karate would be perpetuated by the American students who learned from the likes of Kuda, Kise, Soken and others. He also stated that the only people he felt were qualified to teach his brand of Matsumura Seito were Ron Lindsey, Greg Ohl and Charles Tatum.

Ron Lindsey was also a senior student of Kise's. He was president of Kenshinkan for some years. Then there was a falling out between his sensei and himself. Kise was giving out rank for things like a guy getting him some lunch, and made some monetary accusations that were unfounded and outright lies (towards Lindsey who is very humble and lives meagerly), so the board of directors voted to kick Kise out of his own organization! Sounds crazy huh? Anyway, that takes nothing away form the fact that everyone knows Lindsey since the day he began Shorin Ryu was pretty much a real fighter and undefeated in many bouts even as a mudansha versus yudansha, or that Kise can still kick practically everyone's butt although he doesn't teach his students the way he was taught (anymore).

I go where the real is. I trained in a real good system in the Philippines, Shorin Ryu Shorinkan under Ulysses Aquino, and it took me thirteen years to find a good teacher in the USA. I travel 2 hours to train with him, usually twice a month for about 7 hours per session, usually privates. It's worth it. This style of karate is gonna die if good folks don't perpetuate it. I love how our kata look. There are so many nuances left out just in the performiance of Naihanchi kata in other styles. We kept all those little subtleties and emphasize proper structure (Structural qi), balance and a lot of 45 degree angles. We use a lot of kyushojutsu with the thumb as a weapon. Pain and cranking things at odd angles help out with the "tuite" (a term we can use because there are kenpo aspects to our grappling).

If you want to know how the kata look, I'd say that they look more relaxed, natural, fast in a smart "quick" way, varied rhythm, very well rooted, knees always bent (unless you do the Kenpo variety), with use of moderate koshi and smart physics to accomplish strikes. Lots of whip kicks, which are not snap kicks (mae geri keage), but more akin to low Thai kicks that follow through with relaxed speed and return just as fast. No kicks are ever above the waist, although my Shorinkan training has left me with many in my repertoire, especially roundhouses which are nonexistent in Matsumura Seito. The fist is held at 45 degrees, and the elbows brush the side (elbows down).

I wouldn't say it necessarily looks like a 70 year old doing kata. It looks more 50/50 like all karate claims to be. I feel from what I've seen from other Shorin Ryuha that this is how karate use to be before the emphasis on attracting students and fighting in the ring or entering tournaments was emphasized. With time the power in your waza increases, due to the fact that you get away from "constipated" karate. It's almost all punching and hand strikes, and even Soken's back-kick is done by turning around using change-body and whipping out a low front whip kick with the big toe-tip, or the side of the foot. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

If you've ever seen Feeding Crane it does have a lot of similarities to it. Of course their is the Ti and Jigen Ryu influence. Those are very apparent too. I thought I could do karate with my little bit of Shorinkan training, but now I understand what it's like to be less forceful and more natural in my postures. For the first time ever if I were to fight I wouldn't look like a broke kickboxer with some half-assed judo principles thrown in. I'd look like a karate man using very barbaric fighting techs. Our motto isn't "Karate ni sente nashi", it's "Sen no sen". Once you have an inkling strike first and don't stop til it's done.

I would say it's complex in its simplicity, most of all. You learn why lead leg and lead hand techs make sense and work for real fighting. You get away from that remedial karate stuff, like middle block- reverse punch-roundhouse kick to the head. You learn how to use effective hard block-strikes by parrying at the same time with your spare block. You learn how to move and strike simultanously or block-strike simultaneously. Most of all you learn a multitude of combinations and the real meaning behind "continuous fist fighting".

The 2-person drills are phenomenal and make jiyu kumite look like patty-cakes. It's koteate, sparring, distance training, stance training, change-body training and pain acclimation all rolled into one, and it teaches you how to fight with your karate waza.

The stylist does help make a style effective, but the style can also help the stylist be more effective by having more sound techs based on real, not perceived, h2h combat. I know karate. I've seen mulitple representations of all of them both here and abroad. Most of it is a pale representation, of a diluted form of an art that never was. It's good for making money and sometimes decent citizens, but not for self-preservation. That's just the truth.

With the slow demise of old style karate, karate will become more and more unlike itself and more and more like a caricature of "empty hand". My belt uses the kanji to denote "tang hand" versus the kara for "empty". Funakoshi wasn't wrong to name modern Toudi this. It really has become a "hope" art. I'm here to try and stop it, but like the Elephant Bird I doubt me and the few other "adept" or "not-so-adept" can.

Hope to meet you BuDoc when you come to Bastrop to train. Peace and good training to you all.



[This message has been edited by Multiversed (edited 02-20-2005).]

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#105775 - 02/19/05 11:41 AM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Anonymous
Unregistered


Guys,
Thanks for the things to ponder.

Sincerely

Mark

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#105776 - 02/21/05 09:11 AM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi Page,

My kata also looks like my house and office.. (SLOPPY!! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] ).

You are correct though... loose power generation, natural stance, no flashy moves per-se. Definately not the way I trained in kata in TKD, TSO, Wado and American kempo.

Frank

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#105777 - 02/25/05 02:12 PM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Anonymous
Unregistered


Garetts has Merge S.H.O.K.A. into Hozon Kai with Alakmine sensei. i'm apart of them but did not realize they were trying to create a corpration. which is what they are doing.

-Lee http://www.shorinji.net

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#105778 - 02/25/05 02:30 PM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Anonymous
Unregistered


Shorinji,

Could you please tell me more of Charles Garrett, SHOKA and Sensei Akamine. I am recently back to the US and know nothing of them.

Page

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#105779 - 03/08/05 09:49 PM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Multiversed:
The connection between Matsumura Seito Karatejutsu and Okinawan Kenpo is strong. Yuichi Kuda, a senior student of Soken was also a senior student of Shigeru Nakamura. He synthesized the two arts and formed Matsumura Seito (Shorin Ryu) Kenpo. The kata from this lineage have more Seito characteristics than Kenpo ones, but the stances can be longer and a bit wider. They also engage in Bogu sparring. I like some of it and other aspects of it not so much. I never learned the Kenpo variety but my sensei will sometimes show the differences between the kenpo and the karatejutsu.

There's really not that much of a synthesis of anything, as such, because most of Nakamura's karate pedigree can be traced back to Matsumura, through people like Hanashiro and Itosu. Of course, you can't say that you got any family influence until he learned for his years under Soken, but the vast majority of Nakamura's karate was Shuri influenced. Because Itosu arguably had more discourse with Tomari-te proponents, one might say that because of this, some more Tomari influence crept in Kuda-shinshii's Matsumura Kenpo, but you have to remember that Kise also received a shihan menkyo from Nakamura as well as Kuda. "Kenpo" as it used used in the stylistic rubric of "Okinawa Kenpo" does not make it a "Kenpo" style in the same sense as those systems descending from Mitose and those guys; Nakamura taught Shuri/Tomari kata like the Pinans, Naihanchi, Patsai Sho & Dai, Kusanku Sho & Dai, Gojushiho, and Chinto, as well as some Naha kata from his study with Kuniyoshi (which obviously do not appear in the Matsumura Kenpo curriculum).

My current Sensei, Ron Lindsey, was a senior student of Yuichi Kuda. He was president of his organization and Yuichi Kuda himself said that the day would come when old-style Okinawan karate would be perpetuated by the American students who learned from the likes of Kuda, Kise, Soken and others. He also stated that the only people he felt were qualified to teach his brand of Matsumura Seito were Ron Lindsey, Greg Ohl and Charles Tatum.

Yes, Kuda-shinshii did say that after a certain period of time you'd have to come to the USA to find authentic Okinawan karate, but the individuals you mentioned are no longer the only people O'Shinshiii had confidence in teaching his "ha" of Matsumura Shorin-ryu are no longer restricted to that short list; that's very old info.

Ron Lindsey was also a senior student of Kise's. He was president of Kenshinkan for some years. Then there was a falling out between his sensei and himself. Kise was giving out rank for things like a guy getting him some lunch, and made some monetary accusations that were unfounded and outright lies (towards Lindsey who is very humble and lives meagerly), so the board of directors voted to kick Kise out of his own organization! Sounds crazy huh?

Actually, alot of people just "jumped ship", so to speak.

If you want to know how the kata look, I'd say that they look more relaxed, natural, fast in a smart "quick" way, varied rhythm, very well rooted, knees always bent (unless you do the Kenpo variety), with use of moderate koshi

Tomosada-sensei uses the term "gammaku"... he says it's more accurate than the Japanese term "koshi".

and smart physics to accomplish strikes. Lots of whip kicks,

... except for younger men for conditioning...

which are not snap kicks (mae geri keage), but more akin to low Thai kicks that follow through with relaxed speed and return just as fast. No kicks are ever above the waist, although my Shorinkan training has left me with many in my repertoire, especially roundhouses which are nonexistent in Matsumura Seito. The fist is held at 45 degrees, and the elbows brush the side (elbows down).

If you've ever seen Feeding Crane it does have a lot of similarities to it.

I have seen some Feeding Crane through Tsunami's videos. Personally, I don't think it resembles Soken's crane much at all, and rather looks like a stylized version of Goju (or should it be the other way around?) Maybe this isn't the source to which you refer, however.

Also, for the person who asked who inherited Kuda-shinshii's Matsumura Kenpo system, it is his first son, Tomosada. After a year of checking us Americans out, he decided to jump in with both feet. Many people have left since then, but for those of us who stuck with it, we got much more personalized training.

Just my .02... thanks for the great forum!

-Everett Churchill

[This message has been edited by Multiversed (edited 02-20-2005).]
[/QUOTE]

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#105780 - 03/23/05 02:10 PM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Anonymous
Unregistered


you can goto my site, i'll have the Hozon Kai section done by the end of the weekend. http://www.shorinji.net and you can read about garett sensei.

Thanks
-Lee Osborne http://www.shorinji.net

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#105781 - 03/24/05 07:50 PM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Multiversed Offline
Banned

Registered: 03/11/03
Posts: 642
Loc: Sa, Tx. USA
At first I thought you had just quoted my post, then I realized that you had commented too. Everything was bold so I didn't notice your replies at first.

Tsunami videos? Never purchased one. I'm telling you what I know from what I've seen of a White Crane Sifu in San Francisco Chinatown. It's very similar.

Whip kicks are easy to do at any age, and if you want your students to condition their leg muscles, supplementary exercises are great for this. I teach my students the knee-up position kicking too, but after a few months they transition to the seito kicking versus the Japanese karate kumite kick. Hands are much more important than legs and the Seito repertoire of kicks is very brief and simple.

Lindsey Sensei teaches mostly yudansha, so the conditioning part is moot. If you're teaching a lot of beginners or kids who like to spar then teaching the gendai kicks is cool.

I would suspect that you are trying to also say the someone like Garrett or Koeppel is as qualified, knowledgeable and skilled as a Ron Lindsey or Greg Ohl. I have to disagree, but everyone is entitled to what they think they know. Who's your instructor and do you do the kenpo variety? There are differences in the karatejutsu and kenpo varieties. More than someone who doesn't understand the former thinks.

Anyway Mr. Churchill, it was nice speaking with you. Good training.

Bryan Seer

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#105782 - 03/27/05 12:15 AM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Multiversed:


I would suspect that you are trying to also say the someone like Garrett or Koeppel is as qualified, knowledgeable and skilled as a Ron Lindsey or Greg Ohl. I have to disagree, but everyone is entitled to what they think they know. Who's your instructor and do you do the kenpo variety? There are differences in the karatejutsu and kenpo varieties. More than someone who doesn't understand the former thinks.


[/QUOTE]

Well, yes of course I have my own opinions about certain people but I'm trying to polish my character and get over stuff like that... some people would accuse me of being petty and probably ignorant. I believe I just made the comment that a certain short list of people approved (at one point) by Kuda-shinshii as those in whom he had confidence in teaching what he taught has long since expanded (by about 15 yrs, by my reckoning). By making that distinction, however, I am not saying that either of these people have been taken off any such list; having trained with Greg in the past, I know how skillful he is.

My teacher is currently Kuda Tomosada-shinshii, Kuda Yuichi-shinshii's son and successor.

Thanks for the continuing distraction, Mr.
Seer.

-Everett

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