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#105753 - 05/31/04 08:09 AM Matsumura Seito karate
DELTA FORCE Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/06/04
Posts: 24
Hi,

I had the occasion to see the pinan katas of this style and also the bassai dai/sho (Kuda Sensei lineage).

While the kobayashi ryu in the pinans use neko ashi, the matsmura seito use a narrow stance similar to zenkutsu dachi)
The passai katas are completely different from kobayashi

Questions or the may experts of this forum especially for Dr. K:

why this difference
which is the version that is older
did Soken sensei teach pinans with this difference

thanks very much

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#105754 - 05/31/04 06:19 PM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Dr. Krunk-n-stein Offline
Member

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 120
Loc: here nor there
[QUOTE]Originally posted by DELTA FORCE:
Hi,

I had the occasion to see the pinan katas of this style and also the bassai dai/sho (Kuda Sensei lineage).

While the kobayashi ryu in the pinans use neko ashi, the matsmura seito use a narrow stance similar to zenkutsu dachi)
The passai katas are completely different from kobayashi

Questions or the may experts of this forum especially for Dr. K:

why this difference
which is the version that is older
did Soken sensei teach pinans with this difference

thanks very much

[/QUOTE]

First off, that narrower stance (shoulder width and back knee even- when kneeling- with opposite ankle bone two fist widths apart) is called a "Pinan Dachi" in our style. It is our basic stance. Very natural. Neko ashi dachi is a transitional stance in our style. We don't ever use it as a stance per se. Makes no sense in the real world. There is also a difference between that Pinan Dachi and Kuda Shinshii's. They use a longer stance 2.5 fists width apart when kneeling, and they straighten their back leg for power, I guess. They are very stiff looking and upright too. In Matsumura Seito Karatejutsu we keep our knees bent always. We relax our upper bodies and almost round our shoulders, like a Muay Thai boxer. Relaxed power is the key.

Kuda's versions differ even from the Matsumura Seito versions because he integrated many Ryukyu Kenpo techs into his karate. He was a senior student of Shigeru Nakamura, like Oyata and those cats. For that reason you will often see that longer, (back leg straight) and wider stance in their style. Remember that Yuichi Kuda taught his version of Matsumura Seito which he called Matsumura Orthodox Shorin Kempo. It is a more modern style, that concentrates a lot on kumite.

With all that said lets talk about the kata you saw.

The Passai/Paisai (jap: Bassai) kata from the Seito lineages (Karatejutsu or Kenpo) are an older form than the other Shorin ryuha. There are similarities, but Chibana's kata reflect many of Itosu's changes from the Okinawan school system way of teaching karate. It looks at lot like Shotokan's Bassai.

Pinan Sandan-Godan of the Kobayashi, Shobayashi(ShorinjiRyu/Seibukan/Sukunaihayashi) and Matsubayashi lineages are older forms. Soken did not teach or learn them when he learned his family kata from Nabe, so he adopted the Chibana version using Orthodox principles, stances, movement and so on.

He did learn Pinan Shodan and Nidan from Nabe, and was told by his uncle that they were simplified, broken down versions of a form called Chan'nan.

In Matsumura Seito the first 2 Pinan are mandatory learning and the last 3 are supplementary. You get many of their lessons in other kata, so Pinan Sandan, Yondan and Godan are seen as redundant kata that train many of the principles seen in the more advanced kata such as Kusanku, Paisai and Gojushiho.

So the other ryuha's Pinan 1-3 are older versions. Our Passai is the original Shuri Te version as handed to Nabe via Sokon Matsumura.

Does this help?



[This message has been edited by Dr. Krunk-n-stein (edited 05-31-2004).]

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#105755 - 05/31/04 10:56 PM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Alejandro Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/02/02
Posts: 940
Loc: Las Cruces, NM USA
Dr. K: Do you know of a link that has pictures or videos of the original Shuri-te Passai?(conducting a personal study [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] Thanks!
-AL

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#105756 - 06/01/04 04:14 AM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
DELTA FORCE Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/06/04
Posts: 24
Hi Dr. K

thanks very much your answer is very clear and it has helped a lot.

I have to say that I was impressed in seeing kuda's sensei katas and their bunkai in a dvds that my friend has (Alexander's Sensei). they look very self defence orientated


I have also noticed that in Kuda's sensei kata bassai, as in the first movement of pinan shodan there is an use of the passai stance that is very similar to shiko dachi. Is is the same in Matsumura Seito ?

What do you think about Kuda's sensei style ?
do you know who is his successor in okinawa?
And if you learn Kuda's sensei katas, do you find huge differences if you go to okinawa and train with Nishihira kosei sensei ( i belive it should not be so much because bothe have studied with Soken sensei?

What i have understood is the matsmura seito (in all its ramifications;kise,kuda,nishihira)is the oldest and nearest to the original karate self defence system; is it correct?

thanks, Dr K.

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#105757 - 01/27/05 08:10 AM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi Dr. K,

Your analysis of the kata of Matsumura is correct. I was in Oki from 78-80 and started in Kinshinkan under Kise, and wound up in Matsumura. Kise had changed from the cresent step to more linear in his style. You analysis of the Pinans is exactly what I have been taught.

I just found out that Gingras may be starting a new association. Should be interesting.

Thanks for all the great typing.

Frank

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#105758 - 01/28/05 06:42 AM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Anonymous
Unregistered


Creosman,

I too have heard that Sensei Gingras,along with Charles Garrett(whom I do not know) is forming a new association. My understanding is that it will be founded by Gingras and Garrett, but headed by Sensei Akamine.

I have been studying Matsumura Seito for 15 years, however I have never been a member of an association. I may be interested in this if you have further info.

If you care to, please feel free to e-mail me privately.

Page

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#105759 - 01/28/05 07:19 AM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Anonymous
Unregistered


Good Morning BuDoc,

I have not heard of Garrett myself. I have not heard terribly good things about Akamine.

Gingras Sensei I knew in Okinawa. At the time, (and probably still is), he was/is the highest ranking American on the island. The man did some very amazing things. Would be interested to know who you are studying with, lineage and all..

Thanks, and I will try and email later.

Frank

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#105760 - 01/28/05 11:36 AM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by BuDoc:
My understanding is that it will be founded by Gingras and Garrett, but headed by Sensei Akamine.


Page
[/QUOTE]

Didn't Akamine die in 1995 or so?

JohnL

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#105761 - 01/28/05 04:43 PM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Anonymous
Unregistered


John, I think that you might be thinkink of Arakaki. He passed around 1995 or 96.

Page

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#105762 - 01/28/05 05:08 PM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Multiversed Offline
Banned

Registered: 03/11/03
Posts: 642
Loc: Sa, Tx. USA
I wanted to thank Delta, creosman and BuDoc for the kind words. I haven't seen Delta on here for awhile and I hope you're doing well. Anyway have a great weekend!

Bryan

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