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#105753 - 05/31/04 08:09 AM Matsumura Seito karate
DELTA FORCE Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/06/04
Posts: 24
Hi,

I had the occasion to see the pinan katas of this style and also the bassai dai/sho (Kuda Sensei lineage).

While the kobayashi ryu in the pinans use neko ashi, the matsmura seito use a narrow stance similar to zenkutsu dachi)
The passai katas are completely different from kobayashi

Questions or the may experts of this forum especially for Dr. K:

why this difference
which is the version that is older
did Soken sensei teach pinans with this difference

thanks very much

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#105754 - 05/31/04 06:19 PM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Dr. Krunk-n-stein Offline
Member

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 120
Loc: here nor there
[QUOTE]Originally posted by DELTA FORCE:
Hi,

I had the occasion to see the pinan katas of this style and also the bassai dai/sho (Kuda Sensei lineage).

While the kobayashi ryu in the pinans use neko ashi, the matsmura seito use a narrow stance similar to zenkutsu dachi)
The passai katas are completely different from kobayashi

Questions or the may experts of this forum especially for Dr. K:

why this difference
which is the version that is older
did Soken sensei teach pinans with this difference

thanks very much

[/QUOTE]

First off, that narrower stance (shoulder width and back knee even- when kneeling- with opposite ankle bone two fist widths apart) is called a "Pinan Dachi" in our style. It is our basic stance. Very natural. Neko ashi dachi is a transitional stance in our style. We don't ever use it as a stance per se. Makes no sense in the real world. There is also a difference between that Pinan Dachi and Kuda Shinshii's. They use a longer stance 2.5 fists width apart when kneeling, and they straighten their back leg for power, I guess. They are very stiff looking and upright too. In Matsumura Seito Karatejutsu we keep our knees bent always. We relax our upper bodies and almost round our shoulders, like a Muay Thai boxer. Relaxed power is the key.

Kuda's versions differ even from the Matsumura Seito versions because he integrated many Ryukyu Kenpo techs into his karate. He was a senior student of Shigeru Nakamura, like Oyata and those cats. For that reason you will often see that longer, (back leg straight) and wider stance in their style. Remember that Yuichi Kuda taught his version of Matsumura Seito which he called Matsumura Orthodox Shorin Kempo. It is a more modern style, that concentrates a lot on kumite.

With all that said lets talk about the kata you saw.

The Passai/Paisai (jap: Bassai) kata from the Seito lineages (Karatejutsu or Kenpo) are an older form than the other Shorin ryuha. There are similarities, but Chibana's kata reflect many of Itosu's changes from the Okinawan school system way of teaching karate. It looks at lot like Shotokan's Bassai.

Pinan Sandan-Godan of the Kobayashi, Shobayashi(ShorinjiRyu/Seibukan/Sukunaihayashi) and Matsubayashi lineages are older forms. Soken did not teach or learn them when he learned his family kata from Nabe, so he adopted the Chibana version using Orthodox principles, stances, movement and so on.

He did learn Pinan Shodan and Nidan from Nabe, and was told by his uncle that they were simplified, broken down versions of a form called Chan'nan.

In Matsumura Seito the first 2 Pinan are mandatory learning and the last 3 are supplementary. You get many of their lessons in other kata, so Pinan Sandan, Yondan and Godan are seen as redundant kata that train many of the principles seen in the more advanced kata such as Kusanku, Paisai and Gojushiho.

So the other ryuha's Pinan 1-3 are older versions. Our Passai is the original Shuri Te version as handed to Nabe via Sokon Matsumura.

Does this help?



[This message has been edited by Dr. Krunk-n-stein (edited 05-31-2004).]

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#105755 - 05/31/04 10:56 PM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Alejandro Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/02/02
Posts: 940
Loc: Las Cruces, NM USA
Dr. K: Do you know of a link that has pictures or videos of the original Shuri-te Passai?(conducting a personal study [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] Thanks!
-AL

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#105756 - 06/01/04 04:14 AM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
DELTA FORCE Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/06/04
Posts: 24
Hi Dr. K

thanks very much your answer is very clear and it has helped a lot.

I have to say that I was impressed in seeing kuda's sensei katas and their bunkai in a dvds that my friend has (Alexander's Sensei). they look very self defence orientated


I have also noticed that in Kuda's sensei kata bassai, as in the first movement of pinan shodan there is an use of the passai stance that is very similar to shiko dachi. Is is the same in Matsumura Seito ?

What do you think about Kuda's sensei style ?
do you know who is his successor in okinawa?
And if you learn Kuda's sensei katas, do you find huge differences if you go to okinawa and train with Nishihira kosei sensei ( i belive it should not be so much because bothe have studied with Soken sensei?

What i have understood is the matsmura seito (in all its ramifications;kise,kuda,nishihira)is the oldest and nearest to the original karate self defence system; is it correct?

thanks, Dr K.

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#105757 - 01/27/05 08:10 AM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi Dr. K,

Your analysis of the kata of Matsumura is correct. I was in Oki from 78-80 and started in Kinshinkan under Kise, and wound up in Matsumura. Kise had changed from the cresent step to more linear in his style. You analysis of the Pinans is exactly what I have been taught.

I just found out that Gingras may be starting a new association. Should be interesting.

Thanks for all the great typing.

Frank

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#105758 - 01/28/05 06:42 AM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Anonymous
Unregistered


Creosman,

I too have heard that Sensei Gingras,along with Charles Garrett(whom I do not know) is forming a new association. My understanding is that it will be founded by Gingras and Garrett, but headed by Sensei Akamine.

I have been studying Matsumura Seito for 15 years, however I have never been a member of an association. I may be interested in this if you have further info.

If you care to, please feel free to e-mail me privately.

Page

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#105759 - 01/28/05 07:19 AM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Anonymous
Unregistered


Good Morning BuDoc,

I have not heard of Garrett myself. I have not heard terribly good things about Akamine.

Gingras Sensei I knew in Okinawa. At the time, (and probably still is), he was/is the highest ranking American on the island. The man did some very amazing things. Would be interested to know who you are studying with, lineage and all..

Thanks, and I will try and email later.

Frank

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#105760 - 01/28/05 11:36 AM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by BuDoc:
My understanding is that it will be founded by Gingras and Garrett, but headed by Sensei Akamine.


Page
[/QUOTE]

Didn't Akamine die in 1995 or so?

JohnL

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#105761 - 01/28/05 04:43 PM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Anonymous
Unregistered


John, I think that you might be thinkink of Arakaki. He passed around 1995 or 96.

Page

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#105762 - 01/28/05 05:08 PM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Multiversed Offline
Banned

Registered: 03/11/03
Posts: 642
Loc: Sa, Tx. USA
I wanted to thank Delta, creosman and BuDoc for the kind words. I haven't seen Delta on here for awhile and I hope you're doing well. Anyway have a great weekend!

Bryan

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#105763 - 02/01/05 04:30 PM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Sensei Paul Hart Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 279
Loc: Lehigh Acres, Florida
Akimine Sensei is most certainly alive. Charles Garrett San and Ed Gringas San are starting a new group to preserve Hohan Soken's Matsumura Seito. Akimine will take his place at the head of the group. He is a 40 year student of Hohan Soken and his Kata and Karate are top notch. If you have an interest in this association you can join the Matsumurakarate @ Yahoo Groups. The link is here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Matsumurakarate/

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#105764 - 02/01/05 06:00 PM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Multiversed Offline
Banned

Registered: 03/11/03
Posts: 642
Loc: Sa, Tx. USA
Charles Garret is whack and Gingras is the real deal. I'm surprised to hear that Sensei Gingras is messing with that guy. Oh well...

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#105765 - 02/16/05 03:20 AM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Sensei Paul Hart Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 279
Loc: Lehigh Acres, Florida
Charles Garrett is honest about the length of time he trained with Soken, he also does not speak badly of anyone unless it is to them. I believe that is the honorable way to approach a problem with another.

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#105766 - 02/18/05 08:18 AM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hello Sensei Hart,

Would you have any info on Garrett and Akimini Sensei's? I'm in a very small world here, and have been out of the politics and activities of Okinawan Shorin-ryu for many years. Gingras Sensei I know.

Thanks,

Frank

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#105767 - 02/18/05 08:44 AM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hello Guys,
I would like to learn some more about Matsumura Seito karate. Do you have any recomendations as far as sources or materials on your approach to training. Perhaps video clips of kata.

oldman

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#105768 - 02/18/05 10:14 AM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi OldMan,

Here is a link to one of my Sensei's sites.
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Field/5699/main.htm

Which in turn has links to some other sites...

Hope that this is beneficial..

ps..

keep up the humor!!!

Frank

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#105769 - 02/18/05 10:29 AM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by creosman:
Hi OldMan,

Here is a link to one of my Sensei's sites.
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Field/5699/main.htm

Which in turn has links to some other sites...

Hope that this is beneficial..

ps..

keep up the humor!!!

Frank
[/QUOTE]

Frank,
Thanks for your reply.

Even though I'm getting older I don't have any trouble keeping it up. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

oldman

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#105770 - 02/18/05 11:57 AM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Anonymous
Unregistered


Frank,
In looking at the photos from the recommended website I noticed the pictures from
1966. Am I correct in thinking that some of the photos are of Toma and Oyata?.
If so, are your guys training methods and execution of the forms similar to oyatas group?
I have always tried to imagine what you guys might look like actually doing the forms.

oldman

[This message has been edited by oldman (edited 02-18-2005).]

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#105771 - 02/18/05 02:28 PM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi Oldman,

Actually, our kata's look sorta sloppy [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG].
We practice short stance, very loose, not pretty kata to watch. Under Kise Sensei, our kata was sorta hard. Now, mostly relaxed and fast.

The kata link that someone had posted is nothing like our kata... way too stylized, way too deep a stance, etc.. pretty to watch, but doesn't look effective.


(and I am going to ignore the last comment [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] )



[This message has been edited by creosman (edited 02-18-2005).]

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#105772 - 02/18/05 03:47 PM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Anonymous
Unregistered


Oldman,

I have to second Frank. Although where he says "sloppy",I prefer natural! My kata are like my house and office...natural [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

MSSR kata are very loose, upright and natural. Quick and efficient without any exaggerated movements. Imagine how a 70-80 year old would perform kata.

I am afraid that I don't have any video to show. Nor can I recommend places to find them in the US. I have been out of country for a very long time and am still trying to find Kindred MSSR spirits.

Talk to Frank(creosman). His Sensei was a student of Gringas. Very strong MSSR line. Also Multiversed. He trained under Ron Lindsey. Another very strong line. I am going to look to both of them now that I am home.

Glad your interested in Matsumura Seito. It really is a wonderful art.

Page

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#105773 - 02/18/05 07:24 PM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Sensei Paul Hart Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 279
Loc: Lehigh Acres, Florida
If you would like information on Kyoshi Garrett, Kyoshi Gringas or Akimine Sensei you would do good to join the Matsumurakarate group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Matsumurakarate/ This is Garrett's group and can answer any questions. You could give me a call if you would like to talk about this group. Paul at 239-287-4048

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#105774 - 02/19/05 12:07 AM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Multiversed Offline
Banned

Registered: 03/11/03
Posts: 642
Loc: Sa, Tx. USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by oldman:
Frank,
In looking at the photos from the recommended website I noticed the pictures from
1966. Am I correct in thinking that some of the photos are of Toma and Oyata?.
If so, are your guys training methods and execution of the forms similar to oyatas group?
I have always tried to imagine what you guys might look like actually doing the forms.

oldman

[This message has been edited by oldman (edited 02-18-2005).]
[/QUOTE]

The connection between Matsumura Seito Karatejutsu and Okinawan Kenpo is strong. Yuichi Kuda, a senior student of Soken was also a senior student of Shigeru Nakamura. He synthesized the two arts and formed Matsumura Seito (Shorin Ryu) Kenpo. The kata from this lineage have more Seito characteristics than Kenpo ones, but the stances can be longer and a bit wider. They also engage in Bogu sparring. I like some of it and other aspects of it not so much. I never learned the Kenpo variety but my sensei will sometimes show the differences between the kenpo and the karatejutsu.

My current Sensei, Ron Lindsey, was a senior student of Yuichi Kuda. He was president of his organization and Yuichi Kuda himself said that the day would come when old-style Okinawan karate would be perpetuated by the American students who learned from the likes of Kuda, Kise, Soken and others. He also stated that the only people he felt were qualified to teach his brand of Matsumura Seito were Ron Lindsey, Greg Ohl and Charles Tatum.

Ron Lindsey was also a senior student of Kise's. He was president of Kenshinkan for some years. Then there was a falling out between his sensei and himself. Kise was giving out rank for things like a guy getting him some lunch, and made some monetary accusations that were unfounded and outright lies (towards Lindsey who is very humble and lives meagerly), so the board of directors voted to kick Kise out of his own organization! Sounds crazy huh? Anyway, that takes nothing away form the fact that everyone knows Lindsey since the day he began Shorin Ryu was pretty much a real fighter and undefeated in many bouts even as a mudansha versus yudansha, or that Kise can still kick practically everyone's butt although he doesn't teach his students the way he was taught (anymore).

I go where the real is. I trained in a real good system in the Philippines, Shorin Ryu Shorinkan under Ulysses Aquino, and it took me thirteen years to find a good teacher in the USA. I travel 2 hours to train with him, usually twice a month for about 7 hours per session, usually privates. It's worth it. This style of karate is gonna die if good folks don't perpetuate it. I love how our kata look. There are so many nuances left out just in the performiance of Naihanchi kata in other styles. We kept all those little subtleties and emphasize proper structure (Structural qi), balance and a lot of 45 degree angles. We use a lot of kyushojutsu with the thumb as a weapon. Pain and cranking things at odd angles help out with the "tuite" (a term we can use because there are kenpo aspects to our grappling).

If you want to know how the kata look, I'd say that they look more relaxed, natural, fast in a smart "quick" way, varied rhythm, very well rooted, knees always bent (unless you do the Kenpo variety), with use of moderate koshi and smart physics to accomplish strikes. Lots of whip kicks, which are not snap kicks (mae geri keage), but more akin to low Thai kicks that follow through with relaxed speed and return just as fast. No kicks are ever above the waist, although my Shorinkan training has left me with many in my repertoire, especially roundhouses which are nonexistent in Matsumura Seito. The fist is held at 45 degrees, and the elbows brush the side (elbows down).

I wouldn't say it necessarily looks like a 70 year old doing kata. It looks more 50/50 like all karate claims to be. I feel from what I've seen from other Shorin Ryuha that this is how karate use to be before the emphasis on attracting students and fighting in the ring or entering tournaments was emphasized. With time the power in your waza increases, due to the fact that you get away from "constipated" karate. It's almost all punching and hand strikes, and even Soken's back-kick is done by turning around using change-body and whipping out a low front whip kick with the big toe-tip, or the side of the foot. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

If you've ever seen Feeding Crane it does have a lot of similarities to it. Of course their is the Ti and Jigen Ryu influence. Those are very apparent too. I thought I could do karate with my little bit of Shorinkan training, but now I understand what it's like to be less forceful and more natural in my postures. For the first time ever if I were to fight I wouldn't look like a broke kickboxer with some half-assed judo principles thrown in. I'd look like a karate man using very barbaric fighting techs. Our motto isn't "Karate ni sente nashi", it's "Sen no sen". Once you have an inkling strike first and don't stop til it's done.

I would say it's complex in its simplicity, most of all. You learn why lead leg and lead hand techs make sense and work for real fighting. You get away from that remedial karate stuff, like middle block- reverse punch-roundhouse kick to the head. You learn how to use effective hard block-strikes by parrying at the same time with your spare block. You learn how to move and strike simultanously or block-strike simultaneously. Most of all you learn a multitude of combinations and the real meaning behind "continuous fist fighting".

The 2-person drills are phenomenal and make jiyu kumite look like patty-cakes. It's koteate, sparring, distance training, stance training, change-body training and pain acclimation all rolled into one, and it teaches you how to fight with your karate waza.

The stylist does help make a style effective, but the style can also help the stylist be more effective by having more sound techs based on real, not perceived, h2h combat. I know karate. I've seen mulitple representations of all of them both here and abroad. Most of it is a pale representation, of a diluted form of an art that never was. It's good for making money and sometimes decent citizens, but not for self-preservation. That's just the truth.

With the slow demise of old style karate, karate will become more and more unlike itself and more and more like a caricature of "empty hand". My belt uses the kanji to denote "tang hand" versus the kara for "empty". Funakoshi wasn't wrong to name modern Toudi this. It really has become a "hope" art. I'm here to try and stop it, but like the Elephant Bird I doubt me and the few other "adept" or "not-so-adept" can.

Hope to meet you BuDoc when you come to Bastrop to train. Peace and good training to you all.



[This message has been edited by Multiversed (edited 02-20-2005).]

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#105775 - 02/19/05 11:41 AM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Anonymous
Unregistered


Guys,
Thanks for the things to ponder.

Sincerely

Mark

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#105776 - 02/21/05 09:11 AM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi Page,

My kata also looks like my house and office.. (SLOPPY!! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] ).

You are correct though... loose power generation, natural stance, no flashy moves per-se. Definately not the way I trained in kata in TKD, TSO, Wado and American kempo.

Frank

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#105777 - 02/25/05 02:12 PM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Anonymous
Unregistered


Garetts has Merge S.H.O.K.A. into Hozon Kai with Alakmine sensei. i'm apart of them but did not realize they were trying to create a corpration. which is what they are doing.

-Lee http://www.shorinji.net

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#105778 - 02/25/05 02:30 PM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Anonymous
Unregistered


Shorinji,

Could you please tell me more of Charles Garrett, SHOKA and Sensei Akamine. I am recently back to the US and know nothing of them.

Page

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#105779 - 03/08/05 09:49 PM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Multiversed:
The connection between Matsumura Seito Karatejutsu and Okinawan Kenpo is strong. Yuichi Kuda, a senior student of Soken was also a senior student of Shigeru Nakamura. He synthesized the two arts and formed Matsumura Seito (Shorin Ryu) Kenpo. The kata from this lineage have more Seito characteristics than Kenpo ones, but the stances can be longer and a bit wider. They also engage in Bogu sparring. I like some of it and other aspects of it not so much. I never learned the Kenpo variety but my sensei will sometimes show the differences between the kenpo and the karatejutsu.

There's really not that much of a synthesis of anything, as such, because most of Nakamura's karate pedigree can be traced back to Matsumura, through people like Hanashiro and Itosu. Of course, you can't say that you got any family influence until he learned for his years under Soken, but the vast majority of Nakamura's karate was Shuri influenced. Because Itosu arguably had more discourse with Tomari-te proponents, one might say that because of this, some more Tomari influence crept in Kuda-shinshii's Matsumura Kenpo, but you have to remember that Kise also received a shihan menkyo from Nakamura as well as Kuda. "Kenpo" as it used used in the stylistic rubric of "Okinawa Kenpo" does not make it a "Kenpo" style in the same sense as those systems descending from Mitose and those guys; Nakamura taught Shuri/Tomari kata like the Pinans, Naihanchi, Patsai Sho & Dai, Kusanku Sho & Dai, Gojushiho, and Chinto, as well as some Naha kata from his study with Kuniyoshi (which obviously do not appear in the Matsumura Kenpo curriculum).

My current Sensei, Ron Lindsey, was a senior student of Yuichi Kuda. He was president of his organization and Yuichi Kuda himself said that the day would come when old-style Okinawan karate would be perpetuated by the American students who learned from the likes of Kuda, Kise, Soken and others. He also stated that the only people he felt were qualified to teach his brand of Matsumura Seito were Ron Lindsey, Greg Ohl and Charles Tatum.

Yes, Kuda-shinshii did say that after a certain period of time you'd have to come to the USA to find authentic Okinawan karate, but the individuals you mentioned are no longer the only people O'Shinshiii had confidence in teaching his "ha" of Matsumura Shorin-ryu are no longer restricted to that short list; that's very old info.

Ron Lindsey was also a senior student of Kise's. He was president of Kenshinkan for some years. Then there was a falling out between his sensei and himself. Kise was giving out rank for things like a guy getting him some lunch, and made some monetary accusations that were unfounded and outright lies (towards Lindsey who is very humble and lives meagerly), so the board of directors voted to kick Kise out of his own organization! Sounds crazy huh?

Actually, alot of people just "jumped ship", so to speak.

If you want to know how the kata look, I'd say that they look more relaxed, natural, fast in a smart "quick" way, varied rhythm, very well rooted, knees always bent (unless you do the Kenpo variety), with use of moderate koshi

Tomosada-sensei uses the term "gammaku"... he says it's more accurate than the Japanese term "koshi".

and smart physics to accomplish strikes. Lots of whip kicks,

... except for younger men for conditioning...

which are not snap kicks (mae geri keage), but more akin to low Thai kicks that follow through with relaxed speed and return just as fast. No kicks are ever above the waist, although my Shorinkan training has left me with many in my repertoire, especially roundhouses which are nonexistent in Matsumura Seito. The fist is held at 45 degrees, and the elbows brush the side (elbows down).

If you've ever seen Feeding Crane it does have a lot of similarities to it.

I have seen some Feeding Crane through Tsunami's videos. Personally, I don't think it resembles Soken's crane much at all, and rather looks like a stylized version of Goju (or should it be the other way around?) Maybe this isn't the source to which you refer, however.

Also, for the person who asked who inherited Kuda-shinshii's Matsumura Kenpo system, it is his first son, Tomosada. After a year of checking us Americans out, he decided to jump in with both feet. Many people have left since then, but for those of us who stuck with it, we got much more personalized training.

Just my .02... thanks for the great forum!

-Everett Churchill

[This message has been edited by Multiversed (edited 02-20-2005).]
[/QUOTE]

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#105780 - 03/23/05 02:10 PM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Anonymous
Unregistered


you can goto my site, i'll have the Hozon Kai section done by the end of the weekend. http://www.shorinji.net and you can read about garett sensei.

Thanks
-Lee Osborne http://www.shorinji.net

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#105781 - 03/24/05 07:50 PM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Multiversed Offline
Banned

Registered: 03/11/03
Posts: 642
Loc: Sa, Tx. USA
At first I thought you had just quoted my post, then I realized that you had commented too. Everything was bold so I didn't notice your replies at first.

Tsunami videos? Never purchased one. I'm telling you what I know from what I've seen of a White Crane Sifu in San Francisco Chinatown. It's very similar.

Whip kicks are easy to do at any age, and if you want your students to condition their leg muscles, supplementary exercises are great for this. I teach my students the knee-up position kicking too, but after a few months they transition to the seito kicking versus the Japanese karate kumite kick. Hands are much more important than legs and the Seito repertoire of kicks is very brief and simple.

Lindsey Sensei teaches mostly yudansha, so the conditioning part is moot. If you're teaching a lot of beginners or kids who like to spar then teaching the gendai kicks is cool.

I would suspect that you are trying to also say the someone like Garrett or Koeppel is as qualified, knowledgeable and skilled as a Ron Lindsey or Greg Ohl. I have to disagree, but everyone is entitled to what they think they know. Who's your instructor and do you do the kenpo variety? There are differences in the karatejutsu and kenpo varieties. More than someone who doesn't understand the former thinks.

Anyway Mr. Churchill, it was nice speaking with you. Good training.

Bryan Seer

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#105782 - 03/27/05 12:15 AM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Multiversed:


I would suspect that you are trying to also say the someone like Garrett or Koeppel is as qualified, knowledgeable and skilled as a Ron Lindsey or Greg Ohl. I have to disagree, but everyone is entitled to what they think they know. Who's your instructor and do you do the kenpo variety? There are differences in the karatejutsu and kenpo varieties. More than someone who doesn't understand the former thinks.


[/QUOTE]

Well, yes of course I have my own opinions about certain people but I'm trying to polish my character and get over stuff like that... some people would accuse me of being petty and probably ignorant. I believe I just made the comment that a certain short list of people approved (at one point) by Kuda-shinshii as those in whom he had confidence in teaching what he taught has long since expanded (by about 15 yrs, by my reckoning). By making that distinction, however, I am not saying that either of these people have been taken off any such list; having trained with Greg in the past, I know how skillful he is.

My teacher is currently Kuda Tomosada-shinshii, Kuda Yuichi-shinshii's son and successor.

Thanks for the continuing distraction, Mr.
Seer.

-Everett

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#105783 - 03/29/05 06:03 PM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Multiversed Offline
Banned

Registered: 03/11/03
Posts: 642
Loc: Sa, Tx. USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Harijin:
I believe I just made the comment that a certain short list of people approved (at one point) by Kuda-shinshii as those in whom he had confidence in teaching what he taught has long since expanded (by about 15 yrs, by my reckoning). By making that distinction, however, I am not saying that either of these people have been taken off any such list; having trained with Greg in the past, I know how skillful he is.

My teacher is currently Kuda Tomosada-shinshii, Kuda Yuichi-shinshii's son and successor.

Thanks for the continuing distraction, Mr.
Seer.

-Everett
[/QUOTE]

Happy to dis-tract. From what I've seen that list is still very short. Oh and guess who one of Greg's main teachers was? That's a-right-- Ron Lindsey Shinshii. How' bout dat? Go figure! Later Mr. Kirkmont [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG].



[This message has been edited by Multiversed (edited 03-29-2005).]

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#105784 - 03/30/05 05:52 PM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Multiversed:
Happy to dis-tract. From what I've seen that list is still very short. Oh and guess who one of Greg's main teachers was? That's a-right-- Ron Lindsey Shinshii. How' bout dat? Go figure! Later Mr. Kirkmont [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG].

Of course "the list" is still short... attrition takes its toll over the years... but it is no longer limited to the individuals to whom you make mention. And as far as Greg & Ron's relationship is concerned, Ron has always out-ranked Greg and was at various times the USA director for Kenshinkan and Matsumura Kenpo, but he was far from one of his main teachers. He had much more training time with Kise-shinshii and Kuda-shinshii by far.

BTW, what's the "Mr. Kirkmont" thing...???

[This message has been edited by Multiversed (edited 03-29-2005).]
[/QUOTE]

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#105785 - 04/03/05 06:34 AM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Multiversed Offline
Banned

Registered: 03/11/03
Posts: 642
Loc: Sa, Tx. USA
Kirk mont=Church hill

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#105786 - 04/03/05 06:41 AM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Multiversed Offline
Banned

Registered: 03/11/03
Posts: 642
Loc: Sa, Tx. USA
Oh and concerning who Greg's teachers were. These are his own words from a Matsumura Kenpo website---

Name : Greg Ohl
URL :
EMAIL ADDRESS : Gregohl2003@Yahoo.com
Do you practice Matsumura Kenpo? : Yes
If yes, who did you train with? : Hohan Soken, Yuichi Kuda, Fusei Kise, Ronnie Lindsay
Comments: : Greetings to all fmy ormer students. I am glad to see there is still interest in true Okinawan karate-do. I would enjoy hearing from anyone that trained with me


I am real, and I'm telling you the truth about what you may not know. I AM a current student under Shinshii Lindsey, so I get it from the source.

Have a good week.

Bryan Cyr



[This message has been edited by Multiversed (edited 04-03-2005).]

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#105787 - 04/03/05 10:13 PM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Multiversed:
Oh and concerning who Greg's teachers were. These are his own words from a Matsumura Kenpo website---

Name : Greg Ohl
URL :
EMAIL ADDRESS : Gregohl2003@Yahoo.com
Do you practice Matsumura Kenpo? : Yes
If yes, who did you train with? : Hohan Soken, Yuichi Kuda, Fusei Kise, Ronnie Lindsay
Comments: : Greetings to all fmy ormer students. I am glad to see there is still interest in true Okinawan karate-do. I would enjoy hearing from anyone that trained with me


I am real, and I'm telling you the truth about what you may not know. I AM a current student under Shinshii Lindsey, so I get it from the source.

Have a good week.

[This message has been edited by Multiversed (edited 04-03-2005).]
[/QUOTE]

Ah, thanks for the placename lession...

Anyway, at the risk of dragging this out for other people to roll their eyes at, your information is all fine and dandy, but it's dated and either taken out of context or too much is read into into it.

BTW, which Matsumura Kenpo website did you get that from? There's only one officially sanctioned site (for whatever that's worth), and this excerpt is not on it. I have spoken at length to Greg on several occasions on his time on Okinawa, the personages with whom he trained, and all the ugly politics that came up along the way up until his reisgnation from organizations due to the latter. So I've got some "inside track" info as well.

Also, I'm not (nor have I meant to) implying that you are not "real". You have a good week as well.

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#105788 - 04/04/05 12:57 AM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Multiversed Offline
Banned

Registered: 03/11/03
Posts: 642
Loc: Sa, Tx. USA
I can't remember which site and it doesn't matter. Those are his words and his email address. He posted on that site regardless if its snactioned or not. Gimme a break. Look I don't doubt you know what you're doing. Regardless of politics there is one guy who stands above all that crap with the knowledge AND ABILITY to make what he knows really work. On top of that he is a college educated man, former starting fullback for Texas A&M (something you limeys might not know about) and he was a Golden Glove Heavyweight champ of Central Texas. So he can really fight. You can't say that about most karate guys no matter their lineage or knowledge or familial inheritance.

The same can be said for his students. All of them can really use their waza and they practice like you can only imagine. So correspond while I get stuff live, and stop with the facetious attitude. You haven't posted anything convincing in here about technique and seito knowledge with the exception of the term "gammaku". I'd have to see your kata in order to tell whether or not your umuiri was showing, If you're anything like Koeppel, Hunnicut, Garret or any of those characters, then I'd probably just laugh.

Later.

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#105789 - 04/04/05 12:04 AM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Multiversed Offline
Banned

Registered: 03/11/03
Posts: 642
Loc: Sa, Tx. USA
Here's the website. Is it sanctioned? Hahaha!
http://geocities.yahoo.com/gb/view?member=rohai.geo&.start=1

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#105790 - 04/04/05 05:32 PM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Multiversed:
I can't remember which site and it doesn't matter. Those are his words and his email address. He posted on that site regardless if its snactioned or not. Gimme a break. Look I don't doubt you know what you're doing. Regardless of politics there is one guy who stands above all that crap with the knowledge AND ABILITY to make what he knows really work. On top of that he is a college educated man, former starting fullback for Texas A&M (something you limeys might not know about) and he was a Golden Glove Heavyweight champ of Central Texas. So he can really fight. You can't say that about most karate guys no matter their lineage or knowledge or familial inheritance.

The same can be said for his students. All of them can really use their waza and they practice like you can only imagine. So correspond while I get stuff live, and stop with the facetious attitude. You haven't posted anything convincing in here about technique and seito knowledge with the exception of the term "gammaku". I'd have to see your kata in order to tell whether or not your umuiri was showing, If you're anything like Koeppel, Hunnicut, Garret or any of those characters, then I'd probably just laugh.
[/QUOTE]

Between my apparent facetiousness (?) and your inappropriately confrontational stance, I'd say we make a fine pair and are bordering on saying some very un-karate-like things to one another. I'll just bow out now before that happens and we both look like hypocrites. Glad I could be of assistance with a one-word Hogen lesson.

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#105791 - 04/09/05 03:39 PM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hey guys...
I'm just an Iowa farm boy that had the wonderful opportunity to train with some great karateka over the years. I was stunned to see Ron Lindsay and I as a point of controversy. I first met Ron in 1979 when I was trying to promote Shorin Ryu Matusmura Seito Karate in Minnesota.

I had left Okinawa for the last time in 1975 and we were trying to unify the American followers into a viable association. After a failed, but well meaning effort with SMOKA in 1976, I kept correspondence with Sensei Kise's secretary Ed Thompson. Ed transferred to the states and I took a road trip to Oklahoma to meet him. He was a serious man and a great promoter of Shorin Ryu Matsumura Seito. He steered me to Ron Lindsay.

After leaving Oklahoma, I drove to Bastrop, Tx to meet Ron Lindsay, another Soken and Kise student. I was very much impressed by Mr. Lindsay's ability to translate the theory of Shorin Ryu into usable techniques. I attend one of his classes at a Library in Bastrop and was invited to engage in a kumite match. I believe that this was a validation method used by Ron to checkout other karateka. To say the least, we knocked over furniture, scared the sh*t out of his student, and left each other visibly wounded. I was very impressed with Ron's ability to incorporate body change into his actual sparring. I have never, in thirty years of karate training, had a tougher opponent. Ron later complimented me on the "spiritedness" of the match. I felt the same way and left Bastrop knowing I had met a true American karateka.

Following that visit, I served as a regional director of the karate association Ron was heading for Fusei Kise. We talked on the phone on a regular basis. Ron spread the word in Texas and conducted training camps that were widely attended. I operated a number of schools in Minnesota and hosted Ron on a great visit in the early 1980s. Ron was highly positive about our efforts and provided support as our national director.

When political crap caused us to leave the leadership of Master Kise, I put my confidence in Ron, who negotiated a new alliance with Master Kuda. I supported his efforts and kept my schools aligned with the new Matsumura Seito Kenpo assn.

It would be very disappointing to me to hear of any students influence by me be at odds with students of Ron. Those of you who have studied with either of us have learned the way O'Sensei Soken taught us. I place Ron Lindsay in the top category of karateka that I ever had the opportunity to train with...and would admonish those concerned about he and I to focus on their own training. Take the art farther than we did.

Greg Ohl
Minneapolis, MN
Gregohl2003@Yahoo.com

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#105792 - 04/09/05 05:55 PM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Multiversed Offline
Banned

Registered: 03/11/03
Posts: 642
Loc: Sa, Tx. USA
Thank you for the post Sensei Ohl.

I have been training with Ronnie for 6 years now, after coming from a base of Shorinkan, Judo, GJJ/CJJ and boxing. My brother and I searched in vain for over 12 years to find a good Okinawan karate dojo in the San Antonio area. There were/are none. We were pointed in Sensei Lindsey's direction by another Kobayashi practitioner from Houston.

Bastrop is about 90 minutes from where we live and our initial meeting with him was a lot less eventful than yours. He did show us some ti/tuite, and answered any questions we had about his ideas on fighting and karate. He talked at length about the Okinawan karate he knew and taught, and we, of our experiences in the arts while in the Philippines. A quick visit turned into a 3 hour stay. When it was all said and done we asked him to train us and haven't looked back since.

Coming from a decent MAs foundation I think I can spot what is legit and what is "Hope Ryu" or "Dollar-do". I would have to agree with you that as a karate man I have seen none like Lindsey. His ability and knowledge forged by his dedication and diligence for over 35 years now, has made him IMO one of the top 5 karate sensei in the world.

Another interesting thing to note is that his karate and his karate knowledge and accumen have increased over the years. When you guys met he was still young. Those who have been training with him since the 80's have said that his ability and knowledge are even greater now than when he returned from Okinawa or when he ran the various organizations.

I find it entertaining that many so-called sensei, masters, soke and GMs are filthy rich or famous with just rudimentary skills or knowledge of their karate, yet Sensei Lindsey still lives in Bastrop, still runs his classes out of his backyard dojo and still teaches classes for 30 bucks a month. I think he might have ~10 regular students at the most. I don't think that the MAs powers that be have ever heard of him or featured him in any MAs periodical.

Such a shame. Their loss not mine. Anyway, he does have a few very, very dedicated students who will perpetuate O'Sensei Soken's karate principles as well as the principles Ronnie has added to his brand of Matumura Seito.

I know I'm the only one of his students that gets on these sometimes idiotic forums to challenge false claims and any disparaging remarks folks may have concerning Okinawan karate and Matsumura Seito in particular. Everyone always tells me it's a waste of time, but I don't think defending what you know is right is ever a waste, and I enjoy educating people even if they accept what I'm saying or not.

I do know that this little conversation with Mr. Churchill led to a new story, a piece of modern karate lore [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] and a personal post from one of the best Okinawan karate-ka in the world. Sorry to use your name without actually knowing you, but Sensei Lindsey has spoken very highly of you in the past. He did tell me you were once a student of his, but left it at that. I really appreciate the details you added.

Thank you once again Sensei Ohl. Now I'm gonna go train.

Sincerely,
Bryan Cyr

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#105793 - 04/10/05 03:52 PM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Alejandro Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/02/02
Posts: 940
Loc: Las Cruces, NM USA
Bryan-

An issue of "Budo Dojo" from the early 90s featured an article by Lindsay Sensei on Hakatsuru. Its the only aricle by him, concerning him, or mentioning him that I've come across. Thought you might be interested; back issues can be ordered.

-Al

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#105794 - 04/13/05 07:19 PM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Multiversed Offline
Banned

Registered: 03/11/03
Posts: 642
Loc: Sa, Tx. USA
I've see it Al. Thanks for the heads-up, bruh'.

It's so funny to read modern periodicals (BB Mag. for example) and see mediocre (at best) karate-ka like George Alexander have an article explaining the Okinawan karate principle of "continuous fist fighting", yet none of these mags seeks out the sources for Alexander's and Dillman's info. They don't delve into the guys credibility. They just take what he says or submits to them at face knowledge, yet scrutinize a person if they write in complaining about the lack of real MAs covered in their mag..

Instead they want to talk about things that generate money and sensationalisim, like MMAs, which has nothing at all to do with art and more with quick-fix, sado-masochistic butt hugging, or kickboxing/Muay Thai, which is a ring sport loosely based on real self-preservation.

If you ever want to know about real Shorin Ryu, or maybe I should say Orthodox Shorin, all you need to do is ask folks like James Coffman, Ed Gingras, Ron Lindsey, Greg Ohl, Dr. Charles Tatum, Tony Sandoval as well as a very few others I can't remember right now. I'm sure Yuichi Kuda's son, Nishihira, Akamine and others are also top echelon, but they aren't in this hemisphere so it would be hard to ask them.

Who are all these juorneyman and scheisters representing Okinawan karate in these magazines? There will be a day when folks get to witness the karate they were always looking for, but it'll take the next generation of sensei to present it to this superficial, violence loving world.

If you want the karate you do to reflect the original intent of the Shuri Te master Sokon Mastumura, you need to get as close to the source as possible. Just my opinion based on fact. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

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#105795 - 04/14/05 11:28 AM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Alejandro Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/02/02
Posts: 940
Loc: Las Cruces, NM USA
I hear you!

BB Mag is in the buisiness of making money; they do so by appealing to as wide of a traget market as possible. They want the magazine to catch the eye and be picked up off the shelf. So they feature articles that will mostly appeal to the would-be tough guys out there. When an article on karate is featured, it typically focuses on sport, or is a psuedo-scholastic "research" article from a questionable source. Take the latest "Karate Jutsu" article for example.
Oh well, at least quality MA periodicls do exist.

-Al

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#105796 - 04/15/05 03:13 PM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Anonymous
Unregistered


Would anyone know of any reputable Shorin-Ryu Matsumura Seito dojo/sensei in Massachusetts? or perhaps Northeast US?

Thank-You in advance.

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#105797 - 04/15/05 05:36 PM Re: Matsumura Seito karate
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
The closest I know to the Seito lineage might be Greg Lazarus around Seabrook NH. He's a student of Kise Sensei.

Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu

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#105798 - 01/16/09 07:46 PM Re: Matsumura Seito karate [Re: Multiversed]
chadfreeze Offline
Stranger

Registered: 01/16/09
Posts: 2
Loc: San Angelo, TX
Multiversed
Quote:

I go where the real is. I trained in a real good system in the Philippines, Shorin Ryu Shorinkan under Ulysses Aquino, and it took me thirteen years to find a good teacher in the USA. I travel 2 hours to train with him, usually twice a month for about 7 hours per session, usually privates. It's worth it. This style of karate is gonna die if good folks don't perpetuate it. I love how our kata look. There are so many nuances left out just in the performiance of Naihanchi kata in other styles. We kept all those little subtleties and emphasize proper structure (Structural qi), balance and a lot of 45 degree angles. Mlultiversed




I trained under him also;

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#105799 - 02/05/09 12:55 PM Re: Matsumura Seito karate [Re: chadfreeze]
imperial_crane Offline
Member

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 26
Loc: Maryland, USA
There are a few Matsumura Seito sensei here in the U.S. besides myself in Maryland. All you have to do is search a little bit. My lineage is through Akamine Yoshimatsu sensei in Okinawa.
_________________________
Paul S.
Imperial Crane Martial Arts
Maryland, USA

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