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#105703 - 05/20/04 01:58 AM Mr. Smith-Adding to Kata
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Plus at any time (cheat) and add other techniques not in the kata (in case somebody here's taking notes to use against you.

Mr Smith could you please elaborate on how you do this, and if there is a process by which you do this. Master Terou Hayashi(Hayashi-Ha Shito Ryu) does this as well, and I think its great how he transitions his additions to his kata movement. I'd be interested to see how you approach this.

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#105704 - 05/20/04 05:55 AM Re: Mr. Smith-Adding to Kata
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Sensei Lou,

How to add to a kata.

Long, long ago Femio Demura showed a kakakushite movement to Jion. in between two kata techniques he showed a back kick to the rear not in the kata.

Adding can be as simple as adding a kick or a strike that fits the attack you're countering. In large part it should be dictated by what you want the attacker to do, where do you want them to be placed on the ground (as in between you and other attackers), this may suggest another movement or a turn or shift for more benefical results.

The beginning stationary aspect of application analysis moves forward when you start to address tactical concerns.

Likewise another way of addding to a kata is to use kata movements as openings to other techniques. For example the opening if Pinan/Heian Yondan (4) with both hands rising can be an opening for almost every aikido lock in existence.

This is where depth of art comes into play.

I've read Oyata Sensei teaches the higher levels of application are to mix and match techniques from various kata, such as begin with a movement of Seisan and shift to a movement of Kusanku.

The player should be on the direction the instructor wishes to develop the adept's (black belt's) awareness.

Truthfully most of my current efforts are focused on studying application potential from a fractal analysis, but all should be explored if you find enough time.

Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu

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#105705 - 05/20/04 11:42 AM Re: Mr. Smith-Adding to Kata
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
thanks for the reply. I wanted to see where you were coming from.

"I've read Oyata Sensei teaches the higher levels of application are to mix and match techniques from various kata, such as begin with a movement of Seisan and shift to a movement of Kusanku."

This is something that I have been working on. I also study Torite Jutsu, that focuses on the joint locking, throwing and pressure pointing of kata. However I was introduced to the concept of adding other parts of other kata to the one I would be working on. I was told that this went on back with the animal styles and many times a "snake" practioner would add elements of the dragon or tiger to his form.

Alot of times I will show a technique and relate it to kata. If you are showing a set technique, sometimes it requires movements from more than one kata. So I may relate a lock to part of a Wansu movement and another part of a Rohai movement. I was told that this was a great way to experiment, yet when I share this, alot of times I get negative feedback for mixing kata movements. There are movements in kata that can place you where you want to be, as you pointed out, so why not use movement in one kata to set up technique in another? I am glad to see that there is someone else who sees this, but I am wondering if you have met any resistance in teaching this or explaining this to others. I know many people just study the form and thats it, and no bunkai, and others that study Bunkai for just 1 meaning. I have found resistance in upper level Black Belts though, who seem hesitant to use"pieces of kata" and feel the whole Bunkai or the whole kata must be used. Have you seen any of this

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#105706 - 05/20/04 07:19 PM Re: Mr. Smith-Adding to Kata
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Sensei Lou,

While not necessarily true at times I think I've seen everything. When over 25 year ago I began to realize kata technique could actually be used, when trying to explain this to my seniors I met with disinterest. Their method of study was very effective and very different.

Along my way I trained with a number of really great instructors, for oodles of years. Not getting their systems but large shapes of knowledge that added to my own work. A lot of Aikido and specific 'kakushite' style applications for the Shotokan system that layers on top of what I consider kata application and forms the basic drills for grappling. A smattering of Eagle Claw and Chinese arts, and the inspired study if Isshinryu kata application from the late Sherman Harrill. I was only an occassional student but I've recorded 800 application potentials from Isshinryu kata from his clinics.

The issue is if you show somebody (politely nail them) that a technique or a piece of a technique works, they really can't doubt that. Of course the application could be advanced and and they can choose not to spend the years to learn how to fit into an attack and make it work (like the full speed one hand throw) but that doesn't mean the highly skilled can't do it. Just they choose not to pay that price, which doesn't mean what they're doing isn't right for them.

It's just there is too much that works to get hung up on small things.

I don't convince others, I only describe how I train my advanced students (These studies are rarely more than hinted at for kyu students, they have more important matters to train in at their level).

As for the additional techniques, well one answer is to use what comes naturally when the opportunity presents itself. This is where continual technique drills builds skill to shift from one technique to the next.

The one system I trained in uses virtually hundreds of 'hidden' answers, the student is trained in but cannot be seen in kata, as those techniques aren't there. They're just incredibly good answers.

But the higher levels seems to be to take any old movement and be albe to sell it every time. Which may make the circle of contradictions non-ending.

Plesantly,

Victor

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#105707 - 05/20/04 10:23 PM Re: Mr. Smith-Adding to Kata
gokenki1 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/08/04
Posts: 120
Loc: north waterford , me, usa.
great post guys.very informitive I'am in total agreement as long as adding dos'nt become changing.

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#105708 - 05/21/04 01:18 AM Re: Mr. Smith-Adding to Kata
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
this has been the most informational post to date. I have learned much so lets continue to pick your brain. Do you think that the more of a base you have the more you can draw from the kata. Now I am not putting anyone down, but won't a person who has studied something else plus his Karate lend him to seeing more apllication of the kata and more material to add to said kata? So wouldn't a person with a Judo and Shotokan background be able to pull more from a kata than just the Shotkan student? One of the things that I do is study movement,and then match the movement to something similar. So say as a very basic idea, an outward block, the movement is the same as an outward wrist lock or an outward wrist throw. So if I had no art to pull the lock or throw from, would it limit my ability to add to the kata or the Bunkai? Or does studying and trying to find hidden movements offer the same thing?

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#105709 - 05/21/04 05:07 AM Re: Mr. Smith-Adding to Kata
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Hi Sensei Lou,

I understand your point about having a larger base of technique. It really depends on the instruction you've had in the art.

For example when most describe Shotokan they describe an art that just strikes and kicks (and tends to ignore Funakoshi's own examples of throws, too). But when I trained in Shotokan the isntructors system was so detailed it would take a lifetime to fully understand it, and it contained everything. Just as my friends N. Eagle Claw, it's so technique dense you have absolutely no need to try and seek additions, that would take time away from trying to understand what you have already (it took my friend almost 30 years to learn the whole thing and he really worked at it).

On the other hand I came from a traditional karate is to blast away background. I did train with others but in time I came to see almost everything I was learning elsewhere was already in the karate I knew, I just didn't know how to use it those ways.

I find other training drills, say the aikido techniques (and methodolgy) I studied from my Shotokan instructor, are useful to comprehensively study those grappling and locking and projecting skills. But then they are transfered into the actual kata linkeages to make it easier to understand how the kata can flow.

Currently I'm beginning a study how to integrate the work I've done in kata application for my new black belt students, based more on the underlying principles, rather than just the hundreds of things a kata can be used for.

As for the art of adding technique to application, that does not imply kata should change. I see kata as a study in energy development, the higher you practice the more energy you learn how to release in your opponent. I love it when people don't believe in kata, I love people who shut the door on higher energy manament. Yum yum yum.

On the other hand I was never trained that kata had one correct version. From the beginning I was trained in variable versions, and in the Shotokan system I studied at each of their 5 degrees of black belt, the student learns a new 'version' of the kata, with additions, but can not neglect the original versions, the only ones ever shown pubically, either.

I see things as variable state. You can't draw a simple line around them.

Pleasantly,

Victor

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#105710 - 05/21/04 10:42 AM Re: Mr. Smith-Adding to Kata
Alejandro Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/02/02
Posts: 940
Loc: Las Cruces, NM USA
Great posts!

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#105711 - 05/21/04 12:11 PM Re: Mr. Smith-Adding to Kata
still wadowoman Offline
Improved beefier techno-prat

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 3420
Loc: Residence:UK- Heart:Md, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Alejandro:
Great posts! [/QUOTE]


I agree, really interesting.
Sharon

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#105712 - 05/21/04 02:10 PM Re: Mr. Smith-Adding to Kata
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
thanks Mr. Smith I understand. You mention how one is taught the art, do you think for the most part that Sensei's teach this way? My first Karate Sensei taught the kata, no questions asked. When he did allow a question about "what is going on" he would show something and say this is it. His main concern was learning the form, add speed, add power. That was it. Bunkai wasn't even taught till Nidan and then very basic. He retired and I went to study with his Sensei, and the whole scene changed. Kata became the 'scrolls' if you will, for all our training and keys for how technique worked. So I went from one extreme to the other. But once again with my Sensei's background, he focused on certain aspects of the kata. He would say that you need to find the locks, chokes, throws, breaks,pressure points, in each bunkai. He stressed to change the attack , keep the bunkai the same but view it from a different perspctive. However when it came to certain aspects, say throws, he really didn't have the throwing arts, to show very many throws, rather doing the same ones over and over. He was also responsible for showing us how to add technique to the bunkai. He explained it as dependent and independent movement. Where a movement in kata is linked to the next, but also should have a technique for the first movement. So if the first movement is an upper block, then a punch, you had to have a technique for that upper block(a choke, a lock etc)and then one for the block and the punch. His appreciation for me was my Jujutsu background as I could see more locking and throwing in bunkai. So the question is do you think that Instuctors today see these things , and teach them, not see them at all, or just not teach them. I have had the experience that not many teach this process of learning kata. What do you think?

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#105713 - 05/21/04 11:11 PM Re: Mr. Smith-Adding to Kata
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Lou Sensei,

Truthfully I don't know what instructors today know (generically speaking). 30 years ago nobody I trained with looked at kata application as I do today.

When I worked out my beginning understanding I was fortunate to train with those who taught and I worked with them and didn't keep track of others. For example in the Chinese Arts, their teaching paradigm is very different from karates. All the moves have concrete answers, but not multiple ones. of course their forms are often so long the applications are more than enough to approach infinity anyway.

In today's mcDojo world, I don't belive many of them take the time to pursue these studies. They're only catering to their students simplest interests (from what I've observed).

For example in the Shotokan group I trained in, except for skill building in the kyu level, these studies do not begin until Black Belt, and then continue with new material for decades.

My own approach (as mostly a youth karate instructor) is kyu spend time building basic skills, and kata technique application remains a black belt lifetime study. Which, BTW, you really only need one successful technique, but the lifetime of study, keeps pushing your abilities. IMO the more important goal.

And for what other instructors believe, I don't keep track of them. Too busy with my own work.

Pleasantly,

Victor

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