No. I don't practice any type of karate or ryukyu kenpo. I'm a member of Kashima-shinryu kenjutsu, under the true lineage of the shihanke, Seki Fumitake, in Japan (I am aware that there is a guy at the Shiseikan that claims to teach Kashima-shinryu. Inaba claims to teach KSR, but he's a bullshit artist. I'm sure it's just fine, but he has no right to claim that it's affiliated in any way with Kashima-shinryu), under my sensei, Dr. Karl Friday. Though we have a little Kashima-kenpo in our curriculum... In Kashima-shinryu, we study all sorts of things. We have kenjutsu, naginatajutsu, sôjutsu, battôjutsu, shurikenjutsu, reiki no hô, jûjutsu, kumiwaza gusoku dori, Kashima kenpô, bôjutsu, jôjutsu and kaikenjutsu. Lots of stuff... Really fun, but lots of hard work. And don't let anything I say reflect on the opinions of my sensei. It's my peronal view on the subject of kata, independant of Kashima-shinryu. Anyway, ciao.

[This message has been edited by KSR1219 (edited 06-10-2004).]

Hello to all,
Two people earlier in the thread, I feel, touched on one of the major benifits of kata. Yes kata is a library of techinques as has been stated many times. However I feel that kata is a very valuable training tool for the mind. As in when we spar do partner drills etc, at some level we hold back from committing full power and with the intent to really hurt or maim our partner. it is just not acceptable or prudent to do so. However when we do kata there is no reason to hold back at any level. The idea is to shift into the mindset that this is a real self defense situation and it is for life or death. With this type of conviction kata takes on a whole different meaning. And repeating the process of shifting from our everyday mindset to a fighting mindset gets easier and easier to do. Until we can do it at will. This at will stuff is in my opinion the highest level of training. For example, I have seen more than my share of fights. and they usually roughly follow a pattern of gradual escalation. Say from words to shouting to pushing to all out spitting mad. It takes time to "work" through these levels of aggitation. Kata is an attempt to short cut this process where we can shift very rapidly from our waiting-at-the-bus-stop mindset to one that is ready to go at it. And in my opinion that is the real value of kata.....

It seems that complaints about kata are common in many dojos. Is it the stylistic movements that people are finding to be "useless"? I don't know... when I practise on my own, doing combinations, I find that stylistic moves sometimes just drop in there.

What's great about this forum is that people are happy to disagree without getting personal. Well, I'd like to offer the following: When you do a kata that you've been practising, and you do it to the level you were hoping, there is an extreme sense that you've accomplished something. I think that's an important component of your martial arts training. I think it sticks with you in sparring and in real life situations. Depending on the kata, you may very well be able to use what you've learned. Also you may be mentally prepared to face multiple attackers due to kata, which is a real plus [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Good Morning Brian Mullen:

<<If Kata is so important in teaching a person how to fight, then why don't Boxers or Muay Thai fighters have Kata.

Ever seen an OLD "Thai" fighter? How about an OLD "boxer" the type and kind that you are talking about??? How do you account for this... [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] ???

Kata in its simplest, most fundamental form is about building muscle memory, instinct...
so that we have a method to examine, explore and hone our skills.

Kata is NOT about fighting... it is about surviving, and staying alive. There is a serious difference between these two. You can get into a fight, and survive, the attacker should NOT survive intact by kata.

<<Im saying it wont teach you how to be a fighter!!

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] Ummmmngh..... why on earth would I/anyone else waste our time learning to be that??? What possible value, much less INTELLIGENT people need the skill of fighting? The world I live in, the place I have a family, a job... this is NOT something I am seeking!!! Do you :confusion: ?

Foolish, immature men fight... ~adults~ do everything possible to avoid one at *** costs.

Jeff

Thank you all for your input....

I have been training now for a little over a year, and I see some of the things comeing into the light, I still feel that if your sole purpose is to be a great fighter, Kata are not important.
But if you want to be a great martial artist kata are pretty important.

It is not so much about simply performance of the kata, but more about understanding the principles behind the kata. All great fighters understand the exact same principles that are contained in kata, they simply acquired that knowledge in a different way. Kata is a system to learn and develop certain skills and principles of fighting. Just because you can perform a kata does not mean you understand these things. Although you do not have to know kata to learn these fighing principles you can learn them through kata. The great thing about kata is that if you understand the principles contained within one kata you have the ability to fight in any situation. The problem is people confuse kata performance with true kata training.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Brian Mullen:
Thank you all for your input....

I have been training now for a little over a year, and I see some of the things comeing into the light, I still feel that if your sole purpose is to be a great fighter, Kata are not important.
But if you want to be a great martial artist kata are pretty important.[/QUOTE]

Now this is where the difference lies between "modern" arts and TMA, TMA don't train fighters, a fight is a selfdefence situation gone wrong
TMA don't train for that, they train to prevent that
Do you want to fight or just defend yourself and your loved ones?

As for Bruce, he thought that training the movents with partner was better than doing them in thin air, but Kata practice should alway have bunkai included, appart from that he didn't object to the movements itself, what he overlooked was that you don't have a trainingspartner all the time and that is the actual use for Kata

One last thing, the form should follow the application not the other way around, if they change it should be because the application has changed not because it fits the style better
Forms like those of Ashihara karate have returned to this principle, with or without partner they are the same, first there were the combinations then came the Kata

Bruce Lee would be nothing without his Shaolin Training. Without learning his Katas, he would have never advanced to learn nunchaku, certainly not have learned iron palm,shin,vest training, and would never have been a movie star. The as for boxers, I would put my money on a MA over a champion boxer any day.

A whole form is not used in a fight. If you watch old Jacki Chan and Jet li movies, alot of times they will be saying stuff as they are fighting. They are taking a portion of a Kata and applying it to the situation at hand. I know an attacker isn't going to punch and wait for me to do something back.

I agree that Kata can be useless since most Sensei fail to understand their application.

If you want to learn to fight quickly and get good fast, go to the wrong part of town, and pick a fight with the baddest dude there. If you survive, you continue to do that every week for about 6 months, at which time if you can still walk, talk, and see out of both eyes, you will be a proficient fighter. :-)

The point of kata, and most karate training, is mental and physical discipline.

Truth is most people in America today will never get into a fight after about 8th grade. Do karate because you want to.

If you need to be able to defend yourself, hire a credentialed instructor at $80 hr, and make them teach you the bare bones of hand-to-hand life saving combat.

Or go the more enjoyable route, and do your kata.

I knew when I saw this forum that there would be a lot of posts! I think that using focus mits, doing footwork drills, practicing one step sparring, etc. are all "kata" Kata translates as form. Those are all form. Kata is not just a word to denote martial arts techniques. Bruce Lee practiced wooden dummy forms like crazy when he was younger, but then decided to move on to more flowing types of drills. If you do the same thing over and over again it becomes form. A 1,2,3 combonation in boxing is a boxing "form". What boxer doesn't know that one? I think you can use kata or not to develope self defense capabilities; only your intensity and emotional drive matter during training.