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#105392 - 05/13/04 08:31 AM Re: Kata has no use in a real situation!!!!!!!!!!
Kotetsu Offline
Member

Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 314
Loc: Hollis, NH, USA
Kata teaches you how moves flow together. And are a better way of remembering all the things you should have. When I am trying to remember all the strikes i know, i go through my kata in my head. Besides, some people just don't see certain applications for movements, and they lose alot, that's why you talk to other people about kata.

CXT: the spelling Shuai Jiao, and it is a part of the San Shou(free fighting) set. And the San Shou has katas. That's the information i have.
-Louis

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#105393 - 05/13/04 02:00 PM Re: Kata has no use in a real situation!!!!!!!!!!
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Kata teaches you how to transition from stance to stance, technique to technique and aids in teaching you how to put techniques together. It will help sthrengthen stabelizer muscles and helps commit movements to muscle memory. Just like karate, just because you are a boxer doesn't mean you can defend in a real situation. Are kata needed 100% to learn to fight? No. Are they another key to get you there? Yes. There are several techniques out there that are very pointless in a real fight. You learn them in order to teach your body to put together combination smoothly. Without repitition either from kata, one step or shadow boxing you are not going to commit it to muscle memmory and make it second nature. If it's not second nature your not going to react properly and get clocked.

Kata=good.
Training 3 hours a week for three years and thinking you are qualified to judge if kata or any other training tool is pointless= BAD.

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#105394 - 05/13/04 02:02 PM Re: Kata has no use in a real situation!!!!!!!!!!
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Kata teaches you how to transition from stance to stance, technique to technique and aids in teaching you how to put techniques together. It will help sthrengthen stabelizer muscles and helps commit movements to muscle memory. Just like karate, just because you are a boxer doesn't mean you can defend in a real situation. Are kata needed 100% to learn to fight? No. Are they another key to get you there? Yes. There are several techniques out there that are very pointless in a real fight. You learn them in order to teach your body to put together combination smoothly. Without repitition either from kata, one step or shadow boxing you are not going to commit it to muscle memmory and make it second nature. If it's not second nature your not going to react properly and get clocked.

Kata=good.
Training 3 hours a week for three years and thinking you are qualified to judge if kata or any other training tool is pointless= BAD.

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#105395 - 05/13/04 03:08 PM Re: Kata has no use in a real situation!!!!!!!!!!
Stampede Offline
Lord of the Kazoo

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 967
Loc: El Dorado, AR
If someone kills this thread, I'll give everyone a dollar.

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#105396 - 05/14/04 12:40 PM Re: Kata has no use in a real situation!!!!!!!!!!
VJ Offline
Member

Registered: 03/16/04
Posts: 146
Loc: San Diego, CA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by goju:
Brian I suggest you gain a few more years in the arts before you start lipping about kata..[/QUOTE]

If he does get a "few more years" in the arts and still feels the same then what goju?

Brian, your opinion on kata is neither right or wrong. Kata can benefit you but Bruce Lee didn't see that. He was a great Martial Artist revolutionary and pissed off people with his viewpoint. BUT it was his viewpoint based on his studies. Give kata a try and then see if it is of any use to you. It is the only true way to figure out if it works.

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#105397 - 05/18/04 03:32 PM Re: Kata has no use in a real situation!!!!!!!!!!
Lokkan-Do Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 1411
Loc: Ontario, Canada
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Brian Mullen:
I agree with Bruce Lee when he said "Kata is pointless, when learning to fight". " Its like learning how to swim on the sand".

I don't think Kata has any purpose when you are trying to defend yourself. If an attacker throws a left hook at you, you are not gonna break out into chunji or dosan etc...

BR
[/QUOTE]

How long did it take you to figure that out?

Now, kata is not supposed to be used in a real situation!!!!!!!!!! Did you know that?

[This message has been edited by Lokkan-Do (edited 05-21-2004).]

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#105398 - 05/24/04 11:08 AM Re: Kata has no use in a real situation!!!!!!!!!!
Anonymous
Unregistered


Ok we have had the "Kata is pointless" comment and also the "Kata is everything" comment, I think we all agree that it is a tradition and as such open to critisim as all traditions are by the "next generation" to come along.

So do we look back with nostalgia or convert the tradition to modern thinking?

Kata is a study aide, helpful to retain techniques across the years. But you could also use it to "hide your training"

How many classes teach basics?
Everyone does..
How many people find basics boring?
Everyone does..
So kata is a way of "hiding" repetitions
How many time as a beginner did you look up at the senior grades and see them doing Kata and wish you were passed all these basics (punches , kicks and blocks) and into the good stuff (punches , kicks and blocks).
It's all in the mindset. Focus your mind on the moment and then everything will have value.

And to quote Bruce "Focus on the finger and miss all the heavenly glory"

Spend all your time arguing when you could be training [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

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#105399 - 06/09/04 12:02 PM Re: Kata has no use in a real situation!!!!!!!!!!
KSR1219 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/09/04
Posts: 12
I posted my opinions on kata already.
http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/Forum10/HTML/000109.html

Woohoo.

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#105400 - 06/09/04 12:23 PM Re: Kata has no use in a real situation!!!!!!!!!!
KSR1219 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/09/04
Posts: 12
[QUOTE]Originally posted by kakushiite:
I believe we should expect Brian’s perspective to be common among many karate students.

In my view, the core of the problem is the rate at which kata are introduced in many systems, where a new kata is taught to a beginner student every three of four months. In many Shotokan systems, after four years of training, a student is likely to have learned up to 15 kata.

How does this compare with how kata was practiced one hundred years ago. We can all learn from Funakoshi’s writing in the master text.

“In the past, it was expected that about three years were required to learn a single kata, and it was usual that even an expert of considerable skill would only know three or at the most five kata, Thus, in short, it was felt that a superficial understanding of many kata was of little use. The aim of training reflected the precept expressed by the wards, “Although the doorway is narrow, go deeply inward,” I, too, studied for ten years to really learn the three Tekki forms.”

(He then goes on to advocate a new way of more forms, that “one might well reconsider the practice of becoming deeply engrossed in very few forms.” It can be argued that this shift in emphasis was part of an effort to transform karate as an effective self-defense system into more of an art form. Hence, our predicament today.)

It is important to remember that when Funakoshi refers to the time he studied under Itosu, students were expected to train every day for 2 hours. (Itosu’s 3rd Precept, as translated in Nagamine’s “Tales of Okinawa’s Great Masters’)

Let’s do a comparison.
Itosu’s students: 1 kata every three years (3 (years) x 365 (days) x 2 (hours/day) = ~2000 hours)

Average student today: 1 kata every 4 months (4 (months) x 8 (times/month) x 1.5 hours/day) = ~50 hours)

If kata repetition during dojo training were the same today, as it was 100 years ago, then for every kata repetition done today, students 100 years ago would have done 40. But it is quite arguable that in Itosu’s time, there was a much heavier emphasis on kata repetition, since today there has been a shift towards kumite techniques and practice. If 100 years ago, the emphasis were more than twice what it is today, then that ratio would be closer to 100 to 1.

If you really want to make movements automatic, so that they are done almost at an unconscious level, with great speed and power, you really need massive repetitions. That’s the way kata was practiced 100 years ago. That is not typically how it is practiced today.

It can also be argued, that in most dojos, serious repetition of kata applications, with partners, is simply not part of the curriculum. We continually hear of students being told to be patient and that applications will be taught at a higher rank. But at the higher rank are so many more kata, that useful applications to many kata movements are rarely practiced, if at all.

No wonder we have students today with such a negative view of the utility of kata. They are given neither the knowledge, nor the opportunity to do the repetitions needed to make the knowledge work.


[This message has been edited by kakushiite (edited 04-11-2004).]
[/QUOTE]

In the past, people learned a single kata in a year? Hm. Last time I checked, training periods in the traditional Japanese martial arts during the Muromachi period was about half a year. Yagyu Munenori learned Shinkage-ryu in a single summer, anyway. Same with Takeda Shingen and Baba Norifusa. There are old certificates out there (by old, I mean centuries old - the Japanese LOVE paperwork) that say "[so and so] is hereby awarded menkyo kaiden in [such and such] in the year of [blah], after rigorous training since summer of this year of [blah]" It's not because they learned rapidly. And it's not because they studied a single kata. It's because they probably marched right into battle ASAP. They didn't have time to linger in a single area under any specific sensei. Funakoshi was wrong... The warriors of old... Samurai, anyway... Didn't have kata until the late Muromachi period. They learned from experience. Kata is all we have left from that... And they all tie into one kata or a set of kata in any given old school. The ougi, or okugi. They all express the same ideals, the same concepts. I learn a new kata once every week or so... Or more. I learned my first set of 5 kata in about 3 days. Learn from it. It's not that complicated. That's all I have to say about that.

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#105401 - 06/09/04 10:37 PM Re: Kata has no use in a real situation!!!!!!!!!!
Dr. Krunk-n-stein Offline
Member

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 120
Loc: here nor there
KSR1219: You must do Kenpo or a Japanese style of karate. On Okinawa it was not uncommon for a student to train 1 kata for over 3 years. I don't know how the japanese did it, but Okinawan karate kata is and was the ryu and primary method of keeping a ryuha's philosophies intact.

Some folks learn quicker than others. I learned my first 5 Shorin kata in about 18 months. I mean to where I understood each and every movement, its application possibilities, perfect kamae, fist forms, timing, so on. My sensei says that students like me and my bro are the exception. 1 year/kata is not unreasonable. IMHO.

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