Any Instructor that is worth his or her weight in salt will teach the application of movements within Kata. My point was simply that if you pay attention to Funakoshi who said that you should practice Kata untill you can't stand up then recover and start again you would realize how much strength and endurance it develops. People with bug muscles can't who cant punch hard have not developed proper body mechanics or strengthened tendons enough to throw a punch that has avveleration. Look at Wladimir Klitchko he has big arms but he punches with his arm only not his total body, his brother Vlad who is smaller punches with his total body from the tip of the toes to the tip of the fist. There is a reason why boxers say when a knockout punch hits that the puncher got his butt into the punch. Bruce lee in his criticism of Kata merely meant do not limit your thinking to a specific structure. Use structure to develop your body but then use imagination and improvisation in combat.

Bruce lees criticism was target at those who limited their thinking to preset movements, although he seemed in his book to be setting up a straw man. Karate never teaches that kata is sufficient unto itself to train a fighter. Any teacher worth his or her weight in salt will teach the many applications of kata but because most westerners don't want to be injured in training they rarely practice those techniques at full speed with a resistant opponent.

Sorry I didn't know there were two pages so I almost posted the same thing twice.

Kata has it all.

If you don't see the uses of parts of kata then you have a lousy teacher and probably can't be bothered to see what's in front of your face.

Wow, tough room. Well Brian, you really want to think about what you want to do. If you just want to get in the ring, defend yourself againest most attackers, and stay in shape then you prob don't need kata. But... if you want to defend yourself AND your wife or family, defend yourself when you're 80, and unlock the secrets to the many great arts out there (which I can tell you from much experience will save your ass on the street) then you should invest some time in the trad arts. Maybe not tomorrow, but one day. Also if you dig a little deeper, you will find that Muay Thai and Bando do have their way of doing kata and it is great training. I have know great ring fighters that are not as great in the street and very tough street fighters how will not last in a ring. It is not the physical training, it is the mind training. Just a thought.

I will leave Bruce Lee out of this one.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by goldencrane:
Brian

Hmmm... you tell Fumio Demura Ed Parker that Kata/forms have no meaning.. and they will laugh you right out of the martial arts calling you a true novice.. basics teach the base move kata puts them in a flowing pattern it is up to you to modify the technique to suit the given situation.. Heinan Neidan... technique set 1 is a primary defense against a flying side kick or a yamazucki double U punch... an oppent who is behind you can then be dropped with a knife edge kick to the knee...
blocks are not just blocks but strikes as well and after time you will see that kicks are not just kicks but sweeps and throws as well...

the key thing is not to be too stuck on the good or the bad points about the relevance of kata. don't be "stuck" on ANYTHING. It may be very possible to be a great martial artist even without kata- maybe for many the great trick could be to discover how to do that. If you can't, then perhaps kata has become too important because the concept itself may have made you mentally static- and that may be the worst thing for any artist. good luck to all fellow martial artists

Here is a thought.....what about styles that have no kata, or no forms, are they less Martial Artist than those that do? If you like training in say Modern Arnis, there is no set kata or forms, yet there is striking, locking, throwing etc. However there are flow drills and 2 people drills that could be viewed as forms, but technically aren't. So can any series of movements be kata. Judo has kata, though most don't practice it today, it has a set series of movements, but is not kata in the sense we talk about it.Aikido has no empty hands kata, but there are 2 people movements that could be viwed as kata. So is not kata what you make it? If you wake up and shower shave brush your teeth, put your socks on then finish dressing, comb your hair and get a cup of coffee, and do this everyday, the same way, isn't that kata of sorts? My point is that there are styles with no kata that are strong systems, yet you can view what they do and certain movements and drills could be viewed as kata. So I think kata is a drill, a learning tool and while it might not be a traditional kata, we all have series of movements in our systems that can be viewed as kata. Kata is what you make it.

what sensei lou says makes sense to me. kata, infact all of karate is what you make it. it's the labeling that can kill it, or, slow you down. art shouldn't be slowed down or made less by the title. kata could be, but is not necessarily an important component of karate- it's just a vehicle for showing the meaning of how to express the art- the power, the form and the focus- that's what's important- but the kata is not a religion- it's the way to show the underlying meaning of it all. respects, dean

Kata or forms, are more important than people give them credit for. While simply learning a kata may not teach a person how to effectively knock an opponent out, it is, however, the backbone of the art itself. It is very possible to teach a person a particular art without teaching kata, but it would be like peanut butter wihout jelly. The two go hand in hand. I don't think kata was ever supposed to teach any one how to fight, though some dojos may preach that, I don't know. I do know that some dojos put more emphasis on kata than others. Kata is simply biulding blocks for a good foundation of movements, in a nutshell in my opinion. [QUOTE]Originally posted by Brian Mullen:
Raul thank you for your input, but not trying to sound "ignorant". If Kata is so important in teaching a person how to fight, then why don't Boxers or Muay Thai fighters have Kata.

Im not saying that Kata does not have its place, Im saying it wont teach you how to be a fighter!![/QUOTE]