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#105342 - 02/26/04 11:06 AM Kata has no use in a real situation!!!!!!!!!!
Brian Mullen Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/04
Posts: 60
Loc: kcks USA
I agree with Bruce Lee when he said "Kata is pointless, when learning to fight". " Its like learning how to swim on the sand".

I don't think Kata has any purpose when you are trying to defend yourself. If an attacker throws a left hook at you, you are not gonna break out into chunji or dosan etc...

BR

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#105343 - 02/26/04 11:14 AM Re: Kata has no use in a real situation!!!!!!!!!!
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
Brian,

Though there is some truth in your statement... your post shows that you are completely ingorant with regards to the true purpose of kata.

Below is an exerpt of what I had sent a fellow poster on this forum regarding kata... enjoy:

Kata is an encyclopedia of techniques (in all ranges of combat), anatomical human weak points and fighting principles. A way of transferring a fighting system from one person to the next. I suppose the best way to describe it would be a mnemonic device. A perfect example would be the mnemonic on how to perform certain calculations when given a complex and multiple mathematical equation to solve PEMDAS or Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally. This mnemonic refers to the order at which each math component must be handled. You start with P – parenthesis. Anything within parenthesis must be solved first. Then next step would be to look for which numbers are associated with E – exponentials. The order then follows Multiplication, Division, Addition, and finally Subtraction. BTW… Can you tell I’m an auditor LOL. This is true with kata. The similarity being (without being too technique specific) you grab this way and turn that way and your opponent’s body turns or off balances that way which then can be followed up with technique X… But if Technique X is unavailable for some reason or does not make sense then move on to technique R or Z or Q… what ever fits the particular combative equation you are trying to ‘solve’. The techniques in kata are not meant to be interpreted in the specific sequence. Although many of the most efficient applications are done in sequence you can mix and match (both techniques and foot work) to fit your current and erratic situation. This is the essential blue print.

I know where you could go with this. This is modern times and kata was only needed when illiteracy was running rampant in the ancient times. Now in the modern days we have access to video recorders, books, and even the unholy internet. Because of this is kata still necessary? My opinion is yes. Videos, books, and the internet or indeed good tools but are two dimensional. We, being human beings, are 3 dimensional and live in a 3 dimensional world. We need something 3 dimensional to better understand it and make it part of your own natural reflexes. Though books and videos are good they are…. As you put it just thoughts and theory. Unless you apply these techniques on a consistent basis and turn the thought into knowing and the theory into reality you will never get to any real self-defense skill or fighting ability. With kata you are forcing yourself to actually do the techniques rather than just think about them.

kata alone does not make one a fighter nor will it by itself. A fact that many will try to deny but it’s the truth. From the blue print you must then lay the foundation. The foundation would refer to bag drills, strength/cardio training, timing drills, foot work drills. The structure is then built referring to sparring and applying the techniques against a resistant opponent.

Ciao,

Raul

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#105344 - 02/26/04 12:20 PM Re: Kata has no use in a real situation!!!!!!!!!!
Brian Mullen Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/04
Posts: 60
Loc: kcks USA
Raul thank you for your input, but not trying to sound "ignorant". If Kata is so important in teaching a person how to fight, then why don't Boxers or Muay Thai fighters have Kata.

Im not saying that Kata does not have its place, Im saying it wont teach you how to be a fighter!!

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#105345 - 02/26/04 02:36 PM Re: Kata has no use in a real situation!!!!!!!!!!
sunspots Offline
oldtimer/newbie
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 650
Loc: Southern Oregon, USA
Kata can also teach you concentration, self-discipline, smooth movement, and footwork, all of which are needed in self-defense situations.

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#105346 - 02/26/04 02:38 PM Re: Kata has no use in a real situation!!!!!!!!!!
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Brian Mullen:
Raul thank you for your input, but not trying to sound "ignorant". If Kata is so important in teaching a person how to fight, then why don't Boxers or Muay Thai fighters have Kata.

Im not saying that Kata does not have its place, Im saying it wont teach you how to be a fighter!!
[/QUOTE]

They do, they just call it shadow work.

JohnL

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#105347 - 02/26/04 02:43 PM Re: Kata has no use in a real situation!!!!!!!!!!
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
A "kata" can be seen as any prearrange routine. There are many of them in all fighting arts. They are called combinations. The key is how you train them and how you can apply them. I assume all of those who are against prearranged movements such as kata never practice a set combination of strikes, right?

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#105348 - 02/26/04 03:10 PM Re: Kata has no use in a real situation!!!!!!!!!!
Brian Mullen Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/04
Posts: 60
Loc: kcks USA
So you all are saying that self defense sets and one-steps are "kata", give me a break. Shadow work is NOT kata, hitting a heavy bag is NOT kata.

Kata is much different than learning a selfdefense vs a grab,choke,kick,punch etc...!
Can you "picture" yourself defending against a grab,choke,kick,punch etc while doing a Kata?? Yes, But we do not train vs these typs of attacks by doing kata. we learn how to defend doing one-steps and self defense etc..

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#105349 - 02/26/04 03:57 PM Re: Kata has no use in a real situation!!!!!!!!!!
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Brian Mullen:
So you all are saying that self defense sets and one-steps are "kata", give me a break. Shadow work is NOT kata, hitting a heavy bag is NOT kata.

Kata is much different than learning a selfdefense vs a grab,choke,kick,punch etc...!
Can you "picture" yourself defending against a grab,choke,kick,punch etc while doing a Kata?? Yes, But we do not train vs these typs of attacks by doing kata. we learn how to defend doing one-steps and self defense etc..
[/QUOTE]

If you truly mean what you said, then your training must be crap.

JohnL

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#105350 - 02/26/04 04:02 PM Re: Kata has no use in a real situation!!!!!!!!!!
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
Kata is much different than learning a selfdefense vs a grab,choke,kick,punch etc...!

Who taught you kata? They must yhave been crap!

Don't start with the bun kai is blocking and punching three guys in a solar plexuses, and they wait for yo and move to m ove nine after you have kiaied and killed them.

Can you picture yourself defending against a grab,choke,kick,punch etc while doing a Kata??

Not the WHOLE kata!

But we do not train vs these typs of attacks by doing kata.

Oh yes we do. grabs, all of the time. Chokes and hold yes. kicks, and less frequently pucnhes.

we learn how to defend doing one-steps and self defense etc..

A word on slef defense...it should be integrated to your kata....and on one step ... do not use prearrenged attacks and defenses, only as to learn new moves. Do not use rigid stances and modify your blocks so that hit, hit before they do, or trap, parry and strike. Tai sabaki and creative finishing moves are the key to acheiving realistic self defense and fighting, and to bear fruit in actually developing you selkf defense to a highler level.

(Hint; train self defense with a bouncer. Use principles of Tae Kwon, Karate, Aikido and paticularly Okinawan and Kyoikushinkai/Ahihara.)

IMPORTANT: Spend some money dude.
http://www.koryu-uchinadi.com/
www.dragonsociety.com/
www.dillman.com/

More importantly, begin to analyse kata yourself. Some aikido/hapkido instruction can help.

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#105351 - 02/26/04 07:49 PM Re: Kata has no use in a real situation!!!!!!!!!!
Brian Mullen Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/04
Posts: 60
Loc: kcks USA
First of all my training is not crap.

Second i understand "bunkai" in kata, I understand that their are self defense moves and all of your techniques are in the kata.

With that said, when a new student comes into a dojo, you, me anyone, we are not gonna start teaching that student how to defend against a punch,kick,etc...by showing him/her a particular kata/form. we are gonna start with a simple parry block for example followed by a knee kick ( or something)!

It is'nt usually later in our martial arts journey that we start learning the answers to all our kata questions. we learn that self defense tehniques are in the kata/form.

What I was originally trying to say was when it comes down to brass tax, if you train to be a fighter, kata's are not important. again I say boxers do not do kata.
Yes they "shadow box" but so do karateka. when we as martial artist "shadow box", we don't call it "kata". when a boxer hits a heavy bag, You don't look at him and say hey he is doing kata so and so!!! He is training for power, just like we do when we kick and punch bags.

Please all of you "kata Guys" don't be offended. ButI say again if Kata was so important to be a great fighter then Bruce Lee would have held it in higher regard.

Brian

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