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#105041 - 05/03/03 10:32 PM Interesting kata agument
diadicic Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 6
First off I have been doing a lot of kata research for the past 5 years.
I have been finding all kinds of applications and theories. I have also been studying a lot of Okinawn history and culture.

I have been hearing this statement a lot. “The kata only contain moves that are design to deal with untrained attacks, or Violent untrained attacks.” Meaning if you are fighting someone who is trained, your Dead. Ok lets say we accept this. Heres the problem. In 18 century Okinawn, Everybody was trained. Believe it or not even some women. Te or Tode or what ever you want to call it was a past time. The Okinawns were holding tegumi matches that were a touch similar to a modern day grappling compitions. Pre 1900 Tegumi was in reality a very hard freestyle wrestling match were only the best trained would win, and a lot of times people walked away with broken lims or were in choked out. Keeping in mind this was not the objective of these competions, from what I understand from research the object was to either throw them out of the ring or pin them on their back. In the begin of the 1900 the rules of tegumi were changed. The only objective of the game was to throw the opponent out of the ring. Now the tegumi methods are supposed to be hidden within the katas, along with a lot of other stuff. I know Te was always thought to be taught in secret, but Te was only kept a secret when Japan took over the country. So if the art was only for an untrained violent attack and everybody was trained then it was useless. Now It seems to me that there is a whole in this argument. Just a thought.

I mean no disrespect to anyone, I just thought this would make an interesting conversation.

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#105042 - 05/04/03 07:02 PM Re: Interesting kata agument
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
I don't think this is true, although an untrained person is more likely to set themselves up for counterattacks.

The te gumi drills, specific drills for groundwork, open fist and weapons techniques means that they are used for people who are trained.

An armbar still works against me.

You can still get into a fight (mutual combat) with both trained and untrained opponents which should be a mix of sparring and the most effective techniques from kata.

Look at Unsu, the ground kicks are used in grappling or as a defence from a kick. The upper block strikes of Pinan Ni work against anyone in stand up grappling.

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#105043 - 09/02/03 08:12 AM Re: Interesting kata agument
PETER Offline
Member

Registered: 08/29/03
Posts: 239
The actual beginning of a kata is the most devistating. The combat should be over after the first few moves. The reason the Kata continues is the fact that your opponent may be very skilled.

Thanks,
Peter

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#105044 - 09/02/03 04:47 PM Re: Interesting kata agument
kempocos Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 516
Loc: flemington,nj,usa
The actual beginning of a kata is the most devistating. The combat should be over after the first few moves. The reason the Kata continues is the fact that your opponent may be very skilled.

many see the kata as one into the next into the next, into the next etc...
others also see them a seperate movements often showing concept rather than required flow. I have spent whole classes doing bunkai for a single major movememnt. I find following the kata in a very rigid manner does not take into account there is no way to tell how the person will react to the given techniques. they may block it and counter with any number of things, be injured and fall left, right, backwards too may unknowns.

AS ALWAYS IMHO

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#105045 - 09/02/03 08:23 PM Re: Interesting kata agument
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
Ahhh Kempocos.. you beat me to the punch... I'll just add then...

Every SINGLE movement in kata is Lethal and Efficient.

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#105046 - 09/03/03 07:40 AM Re: Interesting kata agument
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by PETER:
The actual beginning of a kata is the most devistating. The combat should be over after the first few moves. The reason the Kata continues is the fact that your opponent may be very skilled.

Thanks,
Peter
[/QUOTE]


Any part of the kata can be (and should be) treated as the begining. As such one part of a kata is no more effective than another.

JohnL

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#105047 - 09/03/03 08:03 AM Re: Interesting kata agument
PETER Offline
Member

Registered: 08/29/03
Posts: 239
I think it is best to learn Kata in stages. First you learn at the earth level ( a block is a block and a strike a strike). You then move to the water level (flowing and evading). Then the air level which consist of much evasion and simultanious striking. at this level blocks are no longer blocks, they are strikes, parries and body manipulations. Eventually you progress to the fire level. At this level everything you do causes pain and damage to your opponent. Kata is the true template to combat. The katas that you named are my favorites and I do believe I have reached the fire level with each ( 30 years). But amazingly enough my instructor still keeps me coming back for increased interpritation. If you are ever in the Pittsburg, PA area email me and Maybe I can enlighten you on some amazing combat bunkia.

This comes from a reply I made in response to another question. The point I bring up is that the kata is a template of many waza combined in a template to make it easier to pass on. I agree each part of a kata can be used as a single offense or defense, but remember the combat must end as soon as possible. The more turns your opponent gets the better the chance of you getting injured. As far as your opponents reactions being unpredictable that is true and again why the kata continues. The katas are based on the 36 habitual acts of violence from Shalin. Although predicting your opponents response is difficult the next move in the Kata places you in the best possible situation to deal with the response. In most situations your opponents response will be to cover, retreat, or continue to engage. The proper Bunkai done the same way (with only a slight variation in timing) will deal with all 3 responses. The developer of the Kata knew through experience that your opponent does not always act the way you want. Again if attacked the first 4 moves of the correctly chosen kata should end it. If it does not you are facing someone with some skill. if you continue through much of the Kata then you need to befriend your opponent and share strategies (Chinto vs Matsumura). Try practicing your Bunkai as if fighting only one opponent, this is a very advanced practice. I call my opponent the "grey man" and consider him equally skilled. Also practice Bunkai with you being the "grey man."
I take the Bunkai very seriously, I can tell you what the "grey man" is bwearing , what he smells like and even if he is cleanly shaved. Sorry to go on and on.
Hope I clearified my previos reply.

Thank You,
Peter
Thanks,

Peter

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#105048 - 09/03/03 09:34 AM Re: Interesting kata agument
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Hi Peter

Earth, water etc levels of kata. Garbage.

"The katas that you named are my favorites and I do believe I have reached the fire level with each ( 30 years). But amazingly enough my instructor still keeps me coming back for increased interpritation."

Sounds like your instructors onto a good thing.

"The point I bring up is that the kata is a template of many waza combined in a template to make it easier to pass on."

This I agree with.

"As far as your opponents reactions being unpredictable that is true and again why the kata continues."

You are suggesting that you perform your kata because the fight continues. Sorry, this I have trouble with.

"The katas are based on the 36 habitual acts of violence from Shalin. Although predicting your opponents response is difficult the next move in the Kata places you in the best possible situation to deal with the response."

You are suggesting that a set sequence of moves in response to a series of random moves. This simply doesn't work.

"In most situations your opponents response will be to cover, retreat, or continue to engage."

That's about all anyone could do in a given situation.

"The proper Bunkai done the same way (with only a slight variation in timing) will deal with all 3 responses. The developer of the Kata knew through experience that your opponent does not always act the way you want."

There is no such thing as a proper bunkai.

"Again if attacked the first 4 moves of the correctly chosen kata should end it."

Sorry Peter but this is impossible. You cannot simply go through 4 moves without knowing or paying regard to how the opponent is going to react.

"If it does not you are facing someone with some skill. if you continue through much of the Kata then you need to befriend your opponent and share strategies (Chinto vs Matsumura)."

Best of luck with this one. You are suggesting that you can progress through more of your kata, and then make freinds with the guy. Sorry, no.

"Try practicing your Bunkai as if fighting only one opponent, this is a very advanced practice. I call my opponent the "grey man" and consider him equally skilled. Also practice Bunkai with you being the "grey man."

There is nothing advanced about fighting one opponent. That's all you can fight at any one time anyway.

"I take the Bunkai very seriously, I can tell you what the "grey man" is bwearing , what he smells like and even if he is cleanly shaved. Sorry to go on and on."

Your over analyzing for the effect you're going to get. I believe you need to simplyfy your thinking. You've gone into meltdown.

JohnL

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#105049 - 09/03/03 12:46 PM Re: Interesting kata agument
kempocos Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 516
Loc: flemington,nj,usa
JOHN-L You hae saved me much typing well said.
To look at KATA with such a narrow view is missing the point of doing KATA. To learn the movements required for techniques. How the technique must be applied I believe is not the reason. I use a saying " a block is a strike is a lock is a throw " to help students see how to approach bunkai. It is hard to make the art work for you if you only see it through the eyes of another.

The point of my commnet is " I Believe "

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#105050 - 09/03/03 01:32 PM Re: Interesting kata agument
PETER Offline
Member

Registered: 08/29/03
Posts: 239
Hi John L

Earth, water etc levels of kata. Garbage.

Garbage?????? Please expand, also can you tell me wether you train in an Amaricanized Do system or a Ko Ryu Okinawan Jutsu system


"As far as your opponents reactions being unpredictable that is true and again why the kata continues."

You are suggesting that you perform your kata because the fight continues. Sorry, this I have trouble with.

Why?????

"The katas are based on the 36 habitual acts of violence from Shalin. Although predicting your opponents response is difficult the next move in the Kata places you in the best possible situation to deal with the response."

You are suggesting that a set sequence of moves in response to a series of random moves. This simply doesn't work.

The Kata is aset sequence of moves, the bunkai allows for variation in timing, posture, and the ability to leave the pattern.

"In most situations your opponents response will be to cover, retreat, or continue to engage."

That's about all anyone could do in a given situation.

That is what I ment.

"The proper Bunkai done the same way (with only a slight variation in timing) will deal with all 3 responses. The developer of the Kata knew through experience that your opponent does not always act the way you want."

There is no such thing as a proper bunkai.

I disagree keep your opponent outside of 11/2 moves and you do have the ability to
choose the "most appropriate Bunkai.

Also there are Bunkai against for example , a frontal attack that should not only end the confrontation but end your opponent.

"Again if attacked the first 4 moves of the correctly chosen kata should end it."

Sorry Peter but this is impossible. You cannot simply go through 4 moves without knowing or paying regard to how the opponent is going to react.

SEE ABOVE!!!
"If it does not you are facing someone with some skill. if you continue through much of the Kata then you need to befriend your opponent and share strategies (Chinto vs Matsumura)."

Best of luck with this one. You are suggesting that you can progress through more of your kata, and then make freinds with the guy. Sorry, no.

I did not mean this literaly, I ment that you are dealing with a person of such skill that the confrontation probably would not have taken place.

"Try practicing your Bunkai as if fighting only one opponent, this is a very advanced practice. I call my opponent the "grey man" and consider him equally skilled. Also practice Bunkai with you being the "grey man."

There is nothing advanced about fighting one opponent. That's all you can fight at any one time anyway.

I ment going through the entire kata as if it is the same opponent that initiated the combat. Not breaking it into waza and going from one opponent to another.

"I take the Bunkai very seriously, I can tell you what the "grey man" is wearing , what he smells like and even if he is cleanly shaved. Sorry to go on and on."

Your over analyzing for the effect you're going to get. I believe you need to simplyfy your thinking. You've gone into meltdown.

John, If you believe this than I already know that you practice Americanized
, Sport Karate. Kata is the key to life presevation Karate. All combat strategies, both offensive and defensive (actually one and the same) are in the Kata. I mean know disrespect but the Bunkai I practice comes from a very pure linage from Okanawa.

Sincerly,
Peter
JohnL


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