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#104971 - 04/20/03 02:32 PM The Wado Ryu kata Seishan
Anonymous
Unregistered


In the Wado kata seishan, after the slow, under tension segment of the kata, we block and punch to each side and then to the front.
We then punch to the nose, simultaneously bringing up our knee before striking uraken (back fist) behind us in shikadachi (sumo stance).
My question is: When we raise our knee as we punch, should our toes be pointing down or should our foot be square and why?

I have seen it done both ways and everyone I ask has no explaination as to why they think they are right. (perhaps the foot shape is irrelevant?)

Anyway, I would be glad to have some opinions, even if nobody actually knows the answer (I don't know how may of you have a background in Wado).

Thanks in advance
Sharon

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#104972 - 05/02/03 05:34 AM Re: The Wado Ryu kata Seishan
Toudiyama Offline
Member

Registered: 04/14/03
Posts: 229
Loc: Zaandam, Netherlands
It being wado I would say it doesn't really matter, I think it should be relaxed, so if you have to force it to be strait or bended, then it is wrong
If no-one can tell why it has to be the one or the other, saying that it has to be done in this or that way is stupid to begin with
Wado isn't a style for blind followers [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]
This evening I will look in the book by Ohtsuka and the Tsunami video where he performs this kata( hope that part isn't missing since not all kata were complete in the old footage)

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#104973 - 05/02/03 04:12 PM Re: The Wado Ryu kata Seishan
perrinwolf Offline
Member

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 28
Hello all,

Well, I don't do Wado, but if it is anything like the Seisan we do in my system, then you would like to keep the foot flat.

1) if toes are pointed down it relaxes the calf mucles a little. If it is flat the calf mucles have a little tension on them.
This helps in balance and helps in the kick.

2) One idea it is for trapping with the foot. If the toes are pointed down, then you can't use the foot for this purpose.

Regards,

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#104974 - 05/02/03 09:12 PM Re: The Wado Ryu kata Seishan
Karate Dude Offline
Member

Registered: 04/29/03
Posts: 438
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
[QUOTE]Originally posted by wadowoman:
In the Wado kata seishan, after the slow, under tension segment of the kata, we block and punch to each side and then to the front.
We then punch to the nose, simultaneously bringing up our knee before striking uraken (back fist) behind us in shikadachi (sumo stance).
My question is: When we raise our knee as we punch, should our toes be pointing down or should our foot be square and why?

I have seen it done both ways and everyone I ask has no explaination as to why they think they are right. (perhaps the foot shape is irrelevant?)

Anyway, I would be glad to have some opinions, even if nobody actually knows the answer (I don't know how may of you have a background in Wado).

Thanks in advance
Sharon
[/QUOTE]
Well I dont know anything about wado,But in the isshinryu system we sweep the floor with our foot,& Come up with the toes down,& Giving the knee kick more power. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#104975 - 05/03/03 01:59 AM Re: The Wado Ryu kata Seishan
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thanks for your input guys.
I have always performed this move with the toes down, but as I said, I have seen it performed both ways and everyone I have asked have no idea why it should be one way or the other.
I was taught that the knee is brought up to avoid a leg sweep as you punch your opponent.
Most people I have asked about this do not know the bunkai to what they are doing. (A few even asked what's bunkai?!!)
I will stick with the way I have always done it for now.
Thanks again for your input.
Sharon

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#104976 - 05/03/03 04:52 AM Re: The Wado Ryu kata Seishan
Toudiyama Offline
Member

Registered: 04/14/03
Posts: 229
Loc: Zaandam, Netherlands
Foot is almost parallel to the floor in the Ohtsuka/Ajaru Video and also in the book it is
I quote "Avoid an enemy's kick from the rear and pull the left leg back while preparing to do a front kick to the enemy in front" so the position of the foot is the same as when doing a fontkick

quote from Wado ryu Karate by Hironori Otsuka isbn 0-920129-18-8 (numbered edition)

I can capture the footage of Ohtsuka doing Seishan and put it online if people are interested

[This message has been edited by Toudiyama (edited 05-03-2003).]

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#104977 - 05/03/03 07:24 AM Re: The Wado Ryu kata Seishan
Anonymous
Unregistered


Yes please, I would be very interested to see it, thanks very much.
Sharon

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#104978 - 05/03/03 01:08 PM Re: The Wado Ryu kata Seishan
Toudiyama Offline
Member

Registered: 04/14/03
Posts: 229
Loc: Zaandam, Netherlands
Ok look in 24 hours on www.toudiyama.nl there's nothing else there but a couple of links to some video clips
Right now I'm transcoding but have to go right now, If I manage it sooner I will post it here

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#104979 - 05/03/03 03:10 PM Re: The Wado Ryu kata Seishan
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thank you.

I look forward to veiwing the clip.
Sharon [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#104980 - 05/03/03 04:47 PM Re: The Wado Ryu kata Seishan
Toudiyama Offline
Member

Registered: 04/14/03
Posts: 229
Loc: Zaandam, Netherlands
3 minutes after I post this the clip will be online

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#104981 - 05/05/03 05:25 AM Re: The Wado Ryu kata Seishan
mwa15 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/31/02
Posts: 14
Loc: UK
[QUOTE]Originally posted by wadowoman:
In the Wado kata seishan, after the slow, under tension segment of the kata, we block and punch to each side and then to the front.
We then punch to the nose, simultaneously bringing up our knee before striking uraken (back fist) behind us in shikadachi (sumo stance).
My question is: When we raise our knee as we punch, should our toes be pointing down or should our foot be square and why?

I have seen it done both ways and everyone I ask has no explaination as to why they think they are right. (perhaps the foot shape is irrelevant?)

Anyway, I would be glad to have some opinions, even if nobody actually knows the answer (I don't know how may of you have a background in Wado).

Thanks in advance
Sharon
[/QUOTE]

Hi,

For Seisen video see:
http://www.dentokanhombu.com/kata.htm

Matt.

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#104982 - 05/05/03 04:20 PM Re: The Wado Ryu kata Seishan
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thanks a bunch Toudiyama, I have never seen Ohtsuka perform kata before.
Not only did the clip answer my question, but I was pleased to see in this video that this kata has been preserved quite accurately. Thanks again.

Matt, thanks to you also.

Sharon

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#104983 - 05/06/03 02:01 AM Re: The Wado Ryu kata Seishan
Toudiyama Offline
Member

Registered: 04/14/03
Posts: 229
Loc: Zaandam, Netherlands
IT was taken from the tape Wado Ryu Karate - vol. I
by Hironori Otsuka & Yoshiaki Ajari

see http://www.dragon-tsunami.org/Tsunami/Pages/section4.htm
But I've noticed that the tapes are no longer available in PAL so you might have to look if some martial art shop still has them

Tape 2 has less footage of Otsuka but still is interesting
I did mail them to ask about the PAL format but haven't had an answer yet

The Book can be ordered through this site see http://www.fightingarts.com/estore/catalog_books_collector.shtml

[This message has been edited by Toudiyama (edited 05-06-2003).]

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#104984 - 08/22/03 02:17 PM Re: The Wado Ryu kata Seishan
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by wadowoman:
In the Wado kata seishan, after the slow, under tension segment of the kata, we block and punch to each side and then to the front.
We then punch to the nose, simultaneously bringing up our knee before striking uraken (back fist) behind us in shikadachi (sumo stance).
My question is: When we raise our knee as we punch, should our toes be pointing down or should our foot be square and why?

I have seen it done both ways and everyone I ask has no explaination as to why they think they are right. (perhaps the foot shape is irrelevant?)

Anyway, I would be glad to have some opinions, even if nobody actually knows the answer (I don't know how may of you have a background in Wado).

Thanks in advance
Sharon
[/QUOTE]

I found this while browsing around, and thought the question interesting. I don't know if you even care any more, after all this time, but here goes:
I'm not a Wado- Ryu stylist, but there's a similar move in Shotokan's Kanku Dai. You turn and perform a rising ura tsuki (Fist- inverted punch, I don't know if Wado- Ryu uses this name) with your right while simultaneously raising the right knee. The same happens in Shotokan as you describe, some sensei teach it with the toes down, some squared off.
In asking about it, what I've been able to put together is that the move has several bunkai, and different sensei teach it according to their preferred bunkai.
One interpretation is that the leg is performing a knee strike to the groin, in which case the toes should point down in order to relax the antagonist muscles to those involved in the strike.
Another is that the leg is being used as a jam block to a front kick that the antagonist has just finished chambering, but hasn't extended yet. In which case the foot is squared off because the added tension in the calf helps your balance. A third interpretation is that the leg was raised to avoid a strike to the foot/ shin by a bo. In that case also the foot is squared in preparation for setting it back down quickly.
The long and the short of it is that the foot's position will depend on the bunkai you choose to give to the move.



[This message has been edited by MAGon (edited 08-22-2003).]

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#104985 - 10/15/03 07:40 AM Re: The Wado Ryu kata Seishan
Bossman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 1785
Loc: Chatham Kent UK
`nally posted by wadowoman:
In the Wado kata seishan, after the slow, under tension segment of the kata, we block and punch to each side and then to the front.
We then punch to the nose, simultaneously bringing up our knee before striking uraken (back fist) behind us in shikadachi (sumo stance).
My question is: When we raise our knee as we punch, should our toes be pointing down or should our foot be square and why?

I have seen it done both ways and everyone I ask has no explaination as to why they think they are right. (perhaps the foot shape is irrelevant?)

Anyway, I would be glad to have some opinions, even if nobody actually knows the answer (I don't know how may of you have a background in Wado).

Thanks in advance
Sharon
[/QUOTE]

Hi Sharon

Before you do this move get a training partner to put a stamping side kick on to the knee of the leg you're about to move, as he pushes down lift the toes of the floor first (thus the foot is raised parallel to the floor) do the attack to the opponent in front and return to stamp on the original training partner's knee as he is finishing his kick with the uraken to the 3 plexus behind his ear as his knee hits the ground.

Steve

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#104986 - 10/16/03 08:44 PM Re: The Wado Ryu kata Seishan
Anonymous
Unregistered


Always keep your foot flat. It's good structural ki and it may prevent you from hyperdorsally flexing your foot. If your toes are pointed towards the ground and you step on top of an obstacle or your opponents foot you could easily sprain your ankle.

In any karate style the sign of proper technique when in a "crane stance (on one leg, opposite knee raised)" is with the foot flat not pointed. Feet pointed towards the ground is a bad habit that was never "trained" out of the karate-ka.

Also, many times this is not necessarily a knee strike. The raised knee is a platform used to lift an opponent's leg before a throw is executed. See Chinto for the bunkai to this.

[This message has been edited by Dr. Krunkenstein (edited 10-17-2003).]

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#104987 - 05/02/04 04:01 AM Re: The Wado Ryu kata Seishan
Wado-AJ Offline
Member

Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 112
Loc: gorinchem, Holland
Maybe this helps out all questions.. since this topic is about wado ryu seishan, we better look at the wado version video right? It is best when we watch the founder, I think he knows.. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

http://toudiyama.nl/Ohtsuka%20Seishan.mpg

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#104988 - 05/02/04 06:00 AM Re: The Wado Ryu kata Seishan
still wadowoman Offline
Improved beefier techno-prat

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 3420
Loc: Residence:UK- Heart:Md, USA
Thanks to everyone for their replies.
Sharon

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#104989 - 05/11/04 02:33 PM Re: The Wado Ryu kata Seishan
ken harding Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/21/04
Posts: 721
Loc: UK
IT was taken from the tape Wado Ryu Karate - vol. I
by Hironori Otsuka & Yoshiaki Ajari

see http://www.dragon-tsunami.org/Tsunami/Pages/section4.htm
But I've noticed that the tapes are no longer available in PAL so you might have to look if some martial art shop still has them

Tape 2 has less footage of Otsuka but still is interesting
I did mail them to ask about the PAL format but haven't had an answer yet

The Book can be ordered through this site see http://www.fightingarts.com/estore/catalog_books_collector.shtml

[This message has been edited by Toudiyama (edited 05-06-2003).]

*****************
Try mona books (www.monabooks.co.uk) for rare out of circulation stuff. I have all the Ajari Videos as well as Suzuki sensei's videos. The suzuki ones can be ordered from www.wikf.com

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#104990 - 05/13/04 08:22 AM Re: The Wado Ryu kata Seishan
ken harding Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/21/04
Posts: 721
Loc: UK
PS Suzuki had foot flat a la stamping on an old and a recent video

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