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#104965 - 04/15/03 12:33 PM Where has the applications gone?
Wongman Offline

Registered: 04/15/03
Posts: 4
Loc: US of A
Hello. I am a new member, and I am glad to join this site, and this forum...and in particular, this discussion. I have trained (off/on) for years in "combination" arts (ie contemporary amalgamations) as well as completely traditional arts. I have studied Choy Lay Fut under an accredited Sifu from the Lau Bun school in San Francisco. I have also studied Shotokan from a international champion, listed in the who's who book of martial arts. Therein lies my dilemma...many Chinese systems contain 2 and 3 man fighting forms, thus isuring that the applications of the forms are not lost. Ed Parker's early book, "Secrets of Chinese Karate" also presented a 2-man form for the reader to learn. It seems that most traditional Karate forms which involve 2 people, are limited to simple Kumite. Based on my Chinese system training, I have seen many similarities between traditional "Kung Fu" forms, and the higher "Black Belt" katas of traditional Karate. My question is, "where are all the 2-man forms of traditional Japanese Karate?" Some of the applications presented in books seem..."wrong' somehow. Perhaps the time has come to research similar Chinese systems (Choy Lay Fut, Black Tiger, White Crane, Monk Fist, Etc) and deduce a new set of applications, based on similar movements from those Chinese forms. Opinions?

#104966 - 04/15/03 09:01 PM Re: Where has the applications gone?
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
Since much of the karate katas come from China (Gojushiho, Niseishi, Seisan), they have been there all along.

The Okinowans had their own grappling and tegumi drills and added the two together.

I am sure that Kata originiating in Okinowa....Chinte, Rinkan, Kokan and Sunusu have two man drills as part of their system, as well as the bunkai.

Yep, seek the source and also make your own studies of kata. An interesting book published by Sanbushi which I am thinking of buying is "Gojushiho, Five Years, One Kata"

Patrick Mc Carthy started of in a Okinowan style and spent may years in Fuchow and Okinowa to learn what he knows now.

#104967 - 04/16/03 06:44 PM Re: Where has the applications gone?
Alejandro Offline

Registered: 05/02/02
Posts: 940
Loc: Las Cruces, NM USA
I study the very okinawan style of karate called Shuri-Ryu. We have three distinctive sets of two man kata kumites called Ippon Kumite Kata, Kihon Kumite Kata, and Taizu Nara-Waza. There are 66 exercises all together. They are a very central and very important part of our system.

#104968 - 04/16/03 09:37 PM Re: Where has the applications gone?
Scholar Offline

Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 472
Loc: Brockton
From my research it depends on the orientation of the practioner as to finding applications in kata such as wrestling,
chin na, pressure points, strikes. Where as far as the master finding these answers / homework in regards to conformance with the particular style.

#104969 - 04/17/03 12:20 PM Re: Where has the applications gone?
Wongman Offline

Registered: 04/15/03
Posts: 4
Loc: US of A basically, I need to do my own research? And interperet the Kata applications based upon my own "needs/style" (ala jeet Kun Do) perspective? I have done that, somewhat. In Mas Oyama's "Essential Karate" the strikes pictured all correspond to Chinese style, albeit with different names. The "Panther" or "Leopard" punch is simply called the Forward Knuckle. The "Snake" strike is a Spear hand, etc, etc. I feel Traditional Karate, is a true representative of ancient arts. In fact, my 10 year old son loves Martial arts movies, and is always clamouring to take "Kung Fu." He has trained in traditional Karate (only up to a yellow) and of course he wants to emulate the films he watches. It is only after I have explained to him, that in our area, the only "true" traditional school is our Karate school. It has direct lineage to Funakoshi. It has all the elements of "Kung Fu", just with different names. And again, our Sensei is a former International Heavyweight Champion...a tested warrior. Although I don't want to "bag" on other arts, TRADITION holds just that. A contemporary mixture art is great for it's intended purpose, but a "real" traditional Kara-te dojo offers more than just a way to fight. A "true" Kara-te practioner, who has taken all the steps; his body hardened, his hands and feet capable of piercing wood, stone and flesh, his mind clear and calm, his spirit indominatable...would surely prove himself the Master of a situation involving potential violence.

#104970 - 04/24/03 04:09 PM Re: Where has the applications gone?
DragonKai Offline

Registered: 04/24/03
Posts: 6
Loc: Evansville, IN U.S.A.

I have spent my entire life studying different martial arts. I am 24 years old, and my first formal "Karate" class was when I was 6 years old. Recently, I have studied at a Mix Martial Arts school, a North American Shotokan School, and now I am beginning my training at a school that is certified by the Butokukai; teaching Okinawan Karate, Yoshin-Ryu Jiujitsu, Kung Fu, and Kenjutsu.

The one thing that I have noticed in all of my studies, is that the true secrets of the Katas is situational. The different techniques can be translated may different ways. Traditionally, when the Okinawans were not allowed, by law, to train in the martial arts, some moves were even disguised as other moves, so over time, some of the more deadly techniques have been translated into simple blocks and strikes, were as in their day, they would have delivered a lethal blow to the attacker. Moves such as the elbow blocks in Heian Nidan and the double block at the start of Tekki Nidan are taught as simple blocks, but upon further study, they are actually hidden lock and throw techniques.
So, yes, personal study and development of bunkai is the best, but if you are interested in how the techniques were meant to be interpreted, I suggest finding the oldest text that you can on the differetn styles in their most basic form to get that information. With any luck, you can find things writeen by the developers of the katas themselves, or at least first generation students of those people. Good Luck.

P.S. It's great that your son is interested in the Martial Arts so young, I only hope that my new baby gains such interest.


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