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#104836 - 12/21/02 12:30 AM Full Arsenals of Comabt
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
Reading the Bubishi, we learn that the Monk Fist practictioners had seperate kata that taught elbows, groundwork, kicking, locking, dim mak and punching.

Can anyone say as to which Shorin or Shorei katas teach specifics, such as throwing, groundwork or punch/counter punch routines or manouvers?

#104837 - 12/22/02 08:01 PM Re: Full Arsenals of Comabt
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Joe the simplest answer is all of the systems you're referencing have the potential to teach everything you're referring to.

The way the Okinawan arts developed the techniques weren't built into separate routines but the material does exist in the available kata.

But the development and teaching structure of Okinawan karate is dependent on the instructor and their perception of the needs of the student.

For the most part most of the issues you're mentioning aren't used in beginner studies, but there is great latitude in any system from instructor to instructor.

Decisions are likely based on the perceived need of the student to face aspects of attack in a specified timeframe.

For example many of the Shaolin arts are based on decades of study to acquire their skills, and it is not unreasonable to accept the normal Okinawan structures were based on similar time frames.

Okinawan karate did not arise to teach instant street self defense, nor did the Shaolin (re: Monk Fist) Arts.


Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu

#104838 - 12/29/02 03:54 AM Re: Full Arsenals of Comabt
Omega-Point Offline

Registered: 11/19/02
Posts: 54
Loc: san antonio, tx., usa
Throws, chokes, locks, sweeps,pps, trips and ground fighting are in the kata. Depending upon the version of Shuri Te kata you are using, these techniques are very apparent if you know what to look for.

Many times tai-sabaki (body change) is incorporated with what looks to be simultaneous strikes or a strike with one hand while chambering the other. Often, as in Passai Dai, a 180o pivot immediately follows this sequence. Some would interpret this as striking training where you strike towards the front and turn to defend your rear. Others who understand grappling may see this as a strike/hair-pull/arm control to a throw.

It just depends. There is a trip to knee-on-stomach to cross-choke -or- throat grab to trachea tear, in one segmant of Chinto. Imagination and plausibility are the key. Experience helps too.

#104839 - 01/02/03 12:14 AM Re: Full Arsenals of Comabt
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
I really don't want to get into specific kata and what they mean. However I will offer this. How you see a movement in kata, will vary with your past knwledge, and your prejudices. If you don't like groundwork, chances are you won't see it in Kata. On the other hand, if a Jujutsuist sees a movement in kata he may feel its a throw or a joint lock, while the Karate-ka sees the strikes. There are some crescents kicks in kata, as a Jujutsu-ist, you may see that crescent kick as stepping over the attackers arm for various techniques, or you may see the crescent kick as a stomp. Just depends what you see. I saw a technique where the attacker arm was in a straight bar(ikkyo-ude osae whatever). There was a inside crescent to the elbow-steped over the arm, into a standing arm bar with both your legs. I feel pretty confident that was not the intention of the movement, but thats what was shown and they made it work. So isn't that what its all about,the finding the information based on your needs.

#104840 - 04/30/03 03:35 PM Re: Full Arsenals of Comabt
diadicic Offline

Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 6
I have been doing kata waza research for 10 yrs. So here is a thought for you, Now This is just for grappling. There are many other areas.

1) Get yourself a copy of Brazilian "jiu-jitsu
Theory and Technique" By Renzo Gracie and Royler Gracie.

2)Read though it, no all at once.

3) Study and practice all three Naihanchi Kata and I swar you will find every move in this book in one of the three katas.

4) you will then start making you own moves or waza out of these kata.

Remember this one rule. Naihanchi is done standing up or against a wall so to speek. Just change your orentation and Lie on you back or your belly.

Remember this is just one way of thinking.


You may not do Naihanchi Kata, It might be called tiki or somthing else. (Its the kata that moves in a bidirectional horse stance) it that helps.

Also you don't have to use that book, you could use any floor grappling book.

I hope this helps.


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